About The Guest:
Phil Millan served as the Assistant Minor League Baseball Athletic Training Coordinator and Latin American Medical Coordinator with the Boston Red Sox organization. He has a background in athletic training and has worked with various professional sports teams, including the Kansas City Chiefs, Oakland Raiders, and in a variety of other athletic training practice settings.
Summary:
Phil Millan shares his journey from being a pre-nursing major in college to working in professional sports as an athletic trainer. He discusses the challenges he faced, including burnout and mental health struggles, and how he made the decision to leave the Red Sox organization and take a job in Texas. He also talks about the importance of finding joy in the little things and the role of failure in personal and professional growth.
Key Takeaways:
Quotes:
Becoming Undone is a NiTROHype Creative production. Written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. If you or someone you know has a story of resilience and victory to share for Becoming Undone, contact me at undonepodcast.com. Follow the show on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn at becomingundonepod and follow me at TobyJBrooks. Listen, subscribe, and leave us a review Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
About The Guest:
Phil Millan served as the Assistant Minor League Baseball Athletic Training Coordinator and Latin American Medical Coordinator with the Boston Red Sox organization. He has a background in athletic training and has worked with various professional sports teams, including the Kansas City Chiefs, Oakland Raiders, and in a variety of other athletic training practice settings.
Summary:
Phil Millan shares his journey from being a pre-nursing major in college to working in professional sports as an athletic trainer. He discusses the challenges he faced, including burnout and mental health struggles, and how he made the decision to leave the Red Sox organization and take a job in Texas. He also talks about the importance of finding joy in the little things and the role of failure in personal and professional growth.
Key Takeaways:
Quotes:
Becoming Undone is a NiTROHype Creative production. Written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. If you or someone you know has a story of resilience and victory to share for Becoming Undone, contact me at undonepodcast.com. Follow the show on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn at becomingundonepod and follow me at TobyJBrooks. Listen, subscribe, and leave us a review Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I resigned my position from the Red Sox and took a job back in Texas where I was going to make comparable money and could really find a way to recharge. And I thank God every day because at the end of the day, had I not done that, I probably wouldn't have met my wife, who I'm really super thankful for more than she probably knows, just because I was in a very dark place. I was in a dark place because I felt as though I had thrown my career away. I felt as though I was being soft about mental health. It was very emotional, it was very depressing, it was very tough. I remember going to work like at the high school like the day after day of one of the World Series and I just wasn't there mentally. Why am I here? What am I doing? And my girlfriend at the time, my now wife, reinforced that you're not alone. You're exactly where you should be right now. That still resonates. I've told her before she picked up the pieces. My name is Phil Milan and I'm Undone. Hey friends, I am glad you're here. Welcome to episode 60. I don't know if you know this or not, but every full episode currently takes me about five hours to record, write, edit, produce. The first one took me 15. So I'm getting better. But still, episode 60 means I'm probably somewhere around the 300 hours mark on this podcasting journey. And a journey it has been. Finding a rhythm with interviewing, smoothing out how to book guests, learning new software and platforms. I went back and listened to bits and pieces of some of those early episodes and they weren't terrible, but I think I've gotten better. Isn't that what this is all about? Having big dreams means being willing to hit a few potholes along the way. If this is your first episode, my sincerest hope is that you love it, that you find enough value in it that you'll commit to making me part of your weekly routine. On your walk or on your workout, during your commute, at the end of a long day, I'd love the chance to become a regular welcome, a meaningful source for good and for growth in your world. So stick around. And if you're regular, thank you so much for your love and your support. This podcasting attempt or growth in any way can be a scary thing. There were times when I wondered if any of this mattered or if any of it was making a difference but you reminded me that it does and that I am. So for real, thanks. That said, welcome to yet another episode of Becoming Undone, the podcast for those who dare bravely, risk mightily, and grow relentlessly. I'm Toby Brooks, an athletic trainer, strength and conditioning coach, and a professor of rehabilitation science at the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center. Over the past two decades, I've been blessed to work with some incredible achievers, and over time, I've grown more and more fascinated with what sets them apart and how failures can frequently be necessary steps on our path toward success. Each week on Becoming Undone, I invite a new guest to examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. I'd like to emphasize that this show is entirely separate from my roles at Texas Tech, but it's my attempt to apply what I've learned and what I'm learning, and to share with others about the mindsets of high achievers. For Missouri native Phil Millon, an early love for the game of baseball eventually led to the pursuit of a career as a health care provider where he completed a bachelor's degree at the University of Missouri and a master's of athletic training at the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center. Eventually he became a certified athletic trainer and after internships with the Kansas City Chiefs and then Oakland Raiders had helped whet his appetite for pro sports, the lure of baseball won out after graduation and he landed a job in the minor league system of the Boston Red Sox organization. However, after a few years, that pro sports job had taken its toll on Phil's mental health, and he made the tough decision to leave the setting for good. Or so he thought. After a variety of stops at a high school and working with the Air Force, an opportunity came up again, and he found himself back in baseball. Here Phil tells his story of overcoming adversity, caring for yourself in order to best help others, and how some of the darkest days of his life actually helped open the door to meet the love of his life in episode 60, Recharge with Phil Milan. Really excited this week, former student who's become a good friend. I look forward to random text messages from Phil Milan. Phil's joining us from a hotel in Atlanta today, is that correct? That is correct. Yeah, so based out of Florida but spends a good amount of time outside the country. Phil is the assistant minor league baseball athletic training coordinator, Latin American medical coordinator with the Boston Red Sox organization. So Phil, I'm really looking forward to cracking the lid off of you today and seeing what makes you tick a little bit. So I always start off with a little bit of a softball. What did you want to be growing up and why? Dr. Brooks, it's always, first of all, I'd like to say just thanks for inviting me on. I know we've been talking about this for a while, but baseball season is one of those seasons that just seems to just never end. And especially for my position, we're dealing with international stuff, take me from January to December. But I think when I was younger, I think I wanted to be an anesthesiologist, like in high school, but after getting to my senior year and realizing that maybe biochem and O-chem and all the chemistry was probably not my strong suit, I think that's what steered me away from an anesthesiologist to more nursing. I have always known that I wanted to be in some sort of healthcare. I just think that finding the niche that suited me and what I wanted to do was going to be the challenge, if that makes sense. Sure. You grew up in Missouri and I guess start at the beginning, wherever that was for you, and we'll dig into your story from kind of childhood on and look at snippets as we go. I think for me it's never been truly about the medicine, it's always been what it is now, but I think for me, it's always been, I've always had this soft spot for helping people and to be a better version of themselves. And how can I be that impact on somebody else, whether it's, I'm going to use an example today of watching somebody recover from an ankle sprain and hit a home run as the first they back. But I think starting at the middle school age, I remember my mom would say, it's probably best to be more of a helper than a, than a taker, if that makes sense. Just trying to be somebody for somebody else, be that person. The way that I grew into it is by helping people overcome their injuries physically and the mental component that comes with that. This is a classic perspective from a seasoned and accomplished athletic trainer. As we'll hear Phil elaborate on further in the conversation, athletic training wasn't something he aspired to do right away. He's had a few stops along the way in defining and finding his purpose. But just as my guest from last episode, Ian Westmoreland, said, sometimes it's easier to define what isn't than what is. Phil isn't me first or ego driven. At his core he's a helper just like his mom taught him to be and from one helper to another I get that it's sometimes difficult to excel and then not be recognized for it because helpers never say look at me we look at them and Phil's patients professional athletes from all over the globe are better for it. Just this week I had a gentleman from my neck of the woods, he does bios on people and he asked me for some info for myself and a couple of photos and I sent him one and it was me stretching an athlete out. The athlete's now the manager for this semi-pro minor league team and the guy's answer to me was, hey, this is great, but do you have any pictures of like your face in the action shot? And I'm like, no, I don't. Every picture I have of me in action is pretty much the back of my head. That's just the nature of this business is we're not the subject. We are there to help the subject. So growing up through high school and knowing you had an interest in medicine, where did sports come into the equation? Were you a competitive athlete yourself or were you always on the periphery helping even then? No, I played baseball, I played football, never tried to play basketball even though I thought that I could hoop with some of the best of them. But yeah, it was always baseball and football and I really turned into a one-sport athlete in high school and into more of a baseball player. Being left-handed, it's a skill, but I realized early on that middle school and high school baseball are two wildly different things. And I didn't necessarily hit too terribly well, but baseball was just my thing. I know my dad played baseball. I would go play slow pitch softball with him on the weekends if he had a tournament going on, and just to go just be around it and be around the guys and just experiencing the team aspect and the team success or the team's failures. And just being able to see all of that, I think, from the jump and seeing some of those guys just get banged up. My dad in his early 40s, just dealing with an ankle or dealing with a shoulder or whatever, I'm just like, we need to, in my young, naive mind, I was like, how can we get you guys back out there? Like, we need the boys back out in the field. And it's just really weird to think about, like, how it all comes full circle now. Yeah, you end up at Mizzou. Talk me through that decision-making process. Oftentimes, a college choice for some students is the most stressful, most difficult decision of their life and weighing all the options. And for other people, they know from an early age right where they're going. So talk me through how you ended up at the University of Missouri. So funny story, I'm a first generation college student. My mom graduated from her university, Baker University in Kansas, my junior year of college. My dad went to trade school. There was no, there was never any conversation of you're going to college or you're going to do this. It was always, you just need to get a job and you need to do what you can do to make your way. And I come from a household where we have three kids and my parents can't afford to put me through school. And then two years later, put my sister and myself through school. And then two years after that, I graduated with my sister and my brother in school. And I decided that I'm just like, I'm going to do it. I like everybody else does it. Everybody else is talking about we're going to just do student loans and whatever. And back then, that was when the height of the student loan, I would call it epidemic, was that it's most rampant. And I just decided to say, everybody else is going here. Let's just go. And I think it upset my dad a little bit, because he was scared of the student loan debt and was scared that I would be living beyond my means and so on, because that's not what he had taught me and what my parents had instilled in me from a young age. But I think he understood that I needed to write my own path and my mom was very supportive of that decision and Ended up at Mizzou in state school like it was not very far from home But still far enough away to where I can be my own person But also just close enough to where if I needed help I could always Drive an hour and a half down the road east or west of I-70 and run into somebody that You know was family. So that's ultimately how I ended up at Mizzou. And it was pushed pretty hard. We go to two years community college and then transfer, but I was like all of my friends who I feel like I compete with academically are not doing that. And so why do I have to? And I think that kind of pushed me to really stick with it and try to still continue to compete academically. And that to me was a no brainer. I'm like, I'm not going to community college. And I still to this day, I tell my wife all the time, I'm like, I would not change anything that I've done in regards to my academics to go back and say I would go to community college for two years. Yeah, I sure would help with my student loan debt. But at the same time, I don't think that I would be where I'm at today had I chose to do that. I wouldn't have the connections that I have today or the experiences that I've had had I chosen to go in a different route academically. Yeah, that's a, man, that's a complicated relationship for me. I went to a community college and I think we grew up probably in similar parts of the world, so to speak, where, at least for me, I won't speak for you, but small town mentality was if you didn't go to community college, it was almost like, oh, you think you're too good for us? And to aspire to go to a four-year school was almost a social faux pas. And so I ended up going to community college. And what I didn't realize at the time was, yeah, I'll save some money on tuition, but I also gave up some scholarship dollars, recruitment scholarships, to go to a four-year school. I think for the right student, a community college is absolutely the right decision. But for others, it's the wrong choice. And you're right, it takes time for those relationships to grow, especially in a tightly networked profession like athletic training. If you would have just showed up as a junior, you never would have had the time to build those relationships, the trust, and have those people be willing to put their reputation on the line to recommend you for work and stuff. So I think it takes courage to be able to make that decision. And it also takes a belief in yourself that it's all going to pan out because otherwise you're saddled with all this debt and you're no further ahead. So kudos to that. And going back on that, I didn't realize how much scholarship dollars I had until I actually looked back at my acceptance letter, which I still have to this day, both to Texas Tech and Mizzou. It was significant based on academic merit and some other scholarships that I had qualified for. And I was like, man, maybe this isn't going to be so bad. And I think a lot of especially first gen as well. And so I stumbled my way through the process. I didn't have anybody there to lead me. And it was on the surface. It's why would I go here? It's cheaper. But you don't realize that you forego those recruitment scholarships. When I go to transfer as a college junior, I don't get much in the way of recruitment scholarships. They want to entice great students out of high school so they can be there and become alumni and alumni who give back and all those kinds of things. Yes, that's definitely the model. So you find yourself at Mizzou, big time athletics, power five. It's a little bit of a change in terms of what you probably experienced in high school. When did the seed start to germinate that big time athletics was where you saw your future? So I was, I was telling my wife this the other day, I was like, can you imagine just me being just in scrubs all day, just working four 12s or four 10s or whatever, and just dealing with whatever specific field I would have chose to have gone into and she was like absolutely not. And she was like, but if you were my nurse though... Oh, behave. Oh yeah. And so a segue into that is I was a pre-nursing major so at the University of Missouri in any sort of like Bachelor of Science in Nursing program, to my understanding, is a four-year program. And so you spend two years pre-nursing and approve your worth and your merit academically, and then you go into two years of RN. And I was a pre-nursing major my freshman year and come to find out that first semester, my academics weren't probably where they should be and just due to some social choices that were made. And I still, to this day, I'm friends with a lot of my fraternity brothers and we still maintain contact and one of them was actually my best man at my wedding. But I was a nursing major and I can still to this day remember that there was five guys in my pre-nursing pre-rec courses that we had to take and four of which are still nurses to this day. I'm the only one that got out and works in athletics and so on and so forth and so I realized early that this is gonna be a little bit more rigorous than what I thought it was, and I should probably pay more attention to like my studies, and it still wasn't enough. And I think that I was a little bit bummed out about that, but also just the financial hardship of trying to be in school, pay for school, focus on school, and still make sure that I have enough money to sustain myself, my living. Thankfully, living in the dorms my freshman year was, it was fine. But, and so a buddy of mine was like, Hey, the athletics department has these student aid positions working with a football team and the baseball team running water and like tape and stuff like that. And it's, it pays, I think, 400 bucks a month or something like that. But you get books and you get free meals. And so I was like, sign me up. I need $400. And that's when I showed up at the Mizzou Athletic Training Complex and met Rex Sharp, who's a living legend at the University of Missouri and just an incredible athletic trainer in his tenure there. And I hadn't looked back. And it's pretty wild to conceptualize that I just, I needed some money because I was poor and a poor college student living off ramen noodles. Yeah, so I hate to point out the irony of ironies here, but it's pretty amazing that it was money that drew you to the field of athletic training. And it shocks most people when I tell them that too, that it's like, oh wow, here we are. Still poor to this day, by the way. Certainly we understand that. I think that's really the heartbeat of this show is how in that moment, you wouldn't have chosen that GPA or in the midst of a semester, those academic struggles. Maybe it ended well, but in the middle, it's hard. This morning, we have a weekly breakfast with my son's football team and the coach shares and he's got just primo grade A coach-isms. And every week I walk away with another one, like I'm writing that down. And the thing I walked away with from today is he talked about, in our society, we've almost tried to do away with hard. We try to make everything easy. Everything's convenient, everything's fast, everything's instant, there's no repercussions. And sometimes you just have to do hard things. And sometimes it sucks in the middle. So what did that season of struggle in college teach you that success wouldn't have? That's actually a good question. I haven't actually thought about it in that way, but I think in the moment, I think it instilled, you've got to find a way. You have to find a way to just get through it. And I think finding a way back then was a lot simpler than what it is for my life example for right now. It was just me back then. At the end of the day, I always had the option to withdraw and go home, plain and simple. But I think trying to find a way to make it happen and not necessarily, quote unquote, give up, but there's got to be another way. There's got to be something else out there that I can still go to school for that is going to, but also give me some sort of money to be able to sustain myself and to sustain me staying there. And so whether that's working additional camps or whether that's trying to save up meal swipes, so we call them swipes back in the day, so that way we could eat, and trying to save up as much money as you possibly could to get you into that down payment, or not down payment, but security deposit on an apartment, for example, for sophomore year, and then trying to stay just enough ahead to where you can figure it out. But I think just that was like the first true, all right, we need to find a solution, we need to find a solution fast. And that, to me, working for the athletics department was my solution. And it worked out. Yeah, for sure. So you're closing in on the end and realizing that athletic training is an option, looking at grad school. What was your thought process in leaving Mizzou and going to that next step in your life? Another great story. real fast that Mizzou didn't have the accreditation that they needed to be able to allow me to sit for the board of certification exam. I had taken a number of courses that were first-year courses in the MAT program that weren't as graduate-level strenuous, if that makes sense, and I'd taken two visits to the University of Arkansas. The University of Arkansas was where we had sent all of our top students that were really aspiring to be athletic trainers. And I've taken two campuses down there and I was like, this is going to be it. This is the place. Arkansas baseball is a top tier program. Arkansas is a great athletic training program for one. I've been reading online. Don't have to take the GRE. And ultimately what happened was I didn't get in. And this was another, you got to find a way. So I was looking at out-of-state schools and do I have to take the GRE? I was scheduling time to take the GRE and I found Texas Tech and I was like, oh I don't have to take the GRE. I had, we had some connections with Texas Tech and in regards to Casey Harrison who was the athletic trainer at the time, number two for football at Mizzou. And he raved about Lubbock and raved about Texas Tech's athletics and staying within the conference of the big 12 that was before the transition from Missouri to the SEC, but trying to find a way, trying to find a way to get into a good program at a bigger school that was going to continue to help foster working upper level athletics and working in higher level athletes. And you interviewed me and you said, all right, we'll take you. I don't remember this at all. I honestly, I don't recall you. Maybe you've told me this and I forgot, but I don't recall you saying that tech was plan B. I know you didn't say in the interview. Oh, no, absolutely not. But as you're saying, this is you, you will be episode 60 something. So I've done a lot of these now and this is the first time the thought ever crossed my mind. I've been looking at this issue from the viewpoint of the individual, but never looking at it from the viewpoint of the community. And my God, am I thankful that they didn't let you in Phil, because you wouldn't have come to Texas Tech and I never would have gotten to know you. Like you are a, you're a friend now. You're not just a former student. And sometimes bad stuff happens to us for a reason, but it literally never crossed my mind that sometimes that reason may be the people that we interact with needed us in their life. I'm tearing up a little bit here just thinking about it. Yeah, I was like, geez Louise. But yeah, I think in our recent conversations, I think you said that since we would discuss some things and you were just like, maybe that's just not your door. And I truly believe that Texas Tech was in fact the door that I needed to enter at that time. Seton Hall was an option that I wasn't too excited about. University of Tennessee, Chattanooga was not an option that I was too keen on. I was, I still have the email that says that I didn't get into Arkansas. I still have it. And we'll talk about that later, but that was motivation for me to say, all right, they don't want me, let me show them why they made a mistake. Yeah. And Arkansas is a great program. I have a lot of friends that went through their program and are successful athletic trainers today and all of our career settings, but there's not a day that doesn't go by that when people ask me, did you go to Texas, where'd you go to school? And I'm like, Texas Tech. And if it has anything to do with Arkansas, I'm not a fan of it. But yeah, but like I said, Texas Tech at that time was the door. And a good one. We were in the midst of a prodigious run of success in terms of pass rate on the BOC. We're trying to get back there, but so you end up at Tech, you end up working some pretty cool sports, get a chance to work with Toby Smith. You got to intern with the Raiders. Talk about that season of opportunity for you. Doing the research on the program at the time that I had known that there was several individuals that were scattered across upper level athletics, whether it was Tower 5 D1 or the NFL or MLB or what have you and I was very comfortable with saying that this was going to be okay. And yeah I got to work with a living legend of a basketball coach in Tubby Smith and being able to learn from Chris Williams who's now the men's basketball athletic trainer at the University of Michigan. Being able to learn from Drew Krieger, who's now one of the athletic trainers with the Arizona Cardinals. And fortunately and unfortunately for me, I didn't get to work baseball because I was told that I had too much baseball on my undergrad resume, Dr. Brooks, and it opened up more doors than I thought it would. And working for the Raiders was for me a way to redeem myself after my subpar experience with the Kansas City Chiefs, 99% of it self-inflicted. But again, just trying to find a way to, one, redefine yourself and change the perception and change the perspective, but also gain that experience and put yourself out there to be a sponge. And I think working for Tubby, you got an understanding for this is the old school way of doing things and how can we navigate that. And blend communication styles and technologies and theories and all of that into a way that he's gonna be able to understand and support. Football was coming up and Patrick Mahomes was not the quarterback at the time. He was our third string quarterback, but trying to see how we could get back into Texas Tech glory in regards to football. And baseball was on the come up at that time as well, doing extremely well. And I think just a lot of those experiences were trying to find a way, right? Find a way to build better communication bridges, find a way to reimagine yourself in this career field and how can we go about doing that one relationship at a time. And then lastly, just trying to just absorb as much knowledge as you can from all of these people that have been there and done that, have worked their way up from a situation similar to yours to get to where they are now. And that to me is them finding a way and showing resiliency and being able to attempt to mirror that is still something that's ingrained in me to be who I am today. Yeah. It's one thing to have opportunities to be successful. It's another to take advantage of them. And so I think you certainly did that, and you're definitely a relationships guy, and that goes a long way. I often say that relationships are the currency of good athletic training practice. I've got all the book smarts in the world, but I can't form a relationship with my patient. It's unlike a lot of other health care professions. As an anesthesiologist, you get 15 seconds of conversation before you put them right to sleep. You didn't need a good bedside manner or a good relationship demeanor to be that that you had aspired to do. But to work with the athletes you work with day in and day out, they've got to trust you. They've got to be willing to communicate things to you that they might not be willing to communicate to another person on the earth. And that's fundamentally different about what we do. And it's what I love about what we do, quite honestly. For me, I miss that connection with the patient. It's all secondhand now. I have that, hopefully, with the students, who then have that with the patients. I'd love to say that it was just smooth sailing. You graduate, you get hooded, you're a master's grad and a certified athletic trainer, and you get your job. And you're smooth sailing from there. But that's not quite how it's played out. You've wrestled with some questions in yourself, I think, over the years about what your purpose is or at least sought to find where your best connection point could be. So let's talk about life after grad school and what that ride's been like. So, I actually, I graduated, I remember, on a Saturday and I graduated and the next morning I was driving to Florida to go start my season-long internship. We call them assistantships now, it's an internship. With the Boston Red Sox, based out of Fort Myers and they were thrilled to have somebody with professional experience that had worked with upper level athletes and could figure out a way to comport themselves professionally, but also be keen on picking up some very upper level clinical traits and so on and so forth. So I started with the Red Sox as a season-long intern that May of graduation and then an opportunity presented itself with the Cardinals, with the St. Louis Cardinals, with the Texas Rangers and then ultimately with the Boston Red Sox. I felt as though the Red Sox gave me my start. Let's just stay loyal to the club. And so my first year full-time, I was able to work in the Dominican. I was able to work with a vast amount of, you know, baseball players that were top-tier talent and super high prospects and very fortunate for that. And my first year full-time with the Boston Red Sox, we won our first minor league championship. And what a ride that was. I remember telling, I was talking about this last night with one of our former players who was with me back then and now is in AAA and is a big league depth guy. We were unstoppable. We were unstoppable. Yeah, we've had minor setbacks, but we found a way to bounce back. I think that's the theme of my career and so on has been just finding a way. I was very fortunate to get the blessing to go work winter ball with Ozzy Guillen as my manager down in Venezuela. And going from such a high level of success with my minor league team and expected to do the same, just due to the sheer caliber of athlete that we were dealing with in Winter Ball, didn't pan out that way. And we were the worst team. I just couldn't prevent all the injuries and just didn't understand and have a concept for what it truly was. And I think the time between the championship run to Winter Ball to my second season full time, I think a lot of it was burnout based, that was self inflicted. And I say self inflicted because I didn't ask for the time down, nor did I even think that asking for time down was appropriate. Because as athletic trainers, we all know that we always have to be on. And I think what we're all starting to realize is we don't. And ultimately I took a step back and needed to recharge. And I resigned my position from the Red Sox and took a job back in Texas where I was going to make comparable money and could really find a way to recharge. And I thank God every day because at the end of the day, had I not done that, I probably wouldn't have met my wife, who I'm really super thankful for, and more than she probably knows, just because I was in a very dark place. I was in a dark place because I felt as though I had thrown my career away. I felt as though I was being soft about mental health, and I was being soft about not sticking with it and sticking through it and worked at a high school and couldn't stand it just because it wasn't true athletic training in my opinion. It was just different from what I've known, different from what I've ever experienced before, a whole different animal. I know for me when I jumped out of arena ball, so for me it was like that's the trajectory I want to work NFL, I want to work D1, whatever. And when I finally gave up on that, at least in that moment, man, I felt like such a failure. Like I just resigned. Everything I worked for, I just threw away. And I went and worked at a tire plant. I was a fitness and wellness coordinator at a tire plant. And I want to zoom in on what you said there, because that's no disrespect to our colleagues that work in high school level, it's not saying it's not real athletic training. It's saying for you. Not at all. No, and I know your heart, but I want to make sure I make this point because Dustin Emory's listening right now. But the point is, we all feel that call, that pull toward something, and for you it was professional sport, and to feel like you cashed in your chips, you touched on it. There's a mental health component to this. You're a man. You're a man of color. There are so many social things working against you being vulnerable, you being willing to take care of yourself, to put yourself first, and that just piles on. You can't talk about that to anybody because to talk about it is to admit it and to say, hey, let's pull my weakness right out in the middle of the room so we can all stare at it for a little bit. Yep. So what was that like when you handed your key in or shut the light to your office off for the last time you thought as a member of the Boston Red Sox organization? What was that like for you? I get super emotional similar feelings and fears are currently present, right? And that moment was very dark. Like it was, I felt alone. I felt as if nobody truly understood like what exactly I was doing and what I was going through. Because at the end of the day, none of my classmates, none of my family, like, really truly understood exactly what I was going through. Because they weren't there, they didn't experience it. And I think what really hammered down and doubled down that sense of aloneness and that sense of mediocrity and sensitivity, I think, was because they had won the World Series that year. And everybody that had done what they were supposed to do and contributed to that team, whether it was getting your guys healthy enough so we can trade them away, getting your guys to the next level to keep pushing everybody up the chain, having been that rehab stop was you contributed. Like, we all contributed to that team's success, and I felt as though I wasn't contributing. I wasn't doing what I'd signed the piece of paper that said that I was willing to do. And it was super dark, man. Like it was very emotional. It was very depressing. It was very tough. And I remember going to work, like at the high school, like the day after day, one of the world series. And I just wasn't there. Like I wasn't there. Mentally. Like I was like, why am I here? What am I doing? And my girlfriend at the time, my now wife, reinforced that you're not alone. Like you're exactly where you should be right now. And that still resonates. Like that resonates more so than I've told her before or what have you. But yeah, like she picked up the pieces. Yeah. So this is just dark. She became a light and a side quest that a veer in the story. It was, had you stayed in that path, you're absolutely right. And her mental health probably would have suffered. I think that's safe to admit, but you also don't meet her. So seasons of failure can grow seasons of success, no doubt about it. And you're not just a one-man show, like going through this deal alone now. You've got someone in your corner and that's a blessing, but it's also a responsibility. My wife told me this one time. She said, I believe in my heart that it's the man's job to decide where we're going. This is a very conservative kind of old school approach. The millennials and Gen Z ladies that hear this would probably take issue with it. But she quickly amended that or added to that and said, I trust you, don't screw it up. And that as a husband, that's almost worse. If she were forbearing and said, we're moving to Seattle, she would never say that. We've not been to the Pacific Northwest, but if she said that, that's easy. I can follow directions, but to be asked to be responsible, not just for myself, but for my whole family is a, that's a different ask. And it truly is a different ask. Like I tell her all the time, I'm like every decision that I make now in regards to my career or whatever, I need input here. It may not be cool in 2023 to talk about the man's role in leading his home, but I think you guys out there know this struggle. We have goals and dreams and ambitions and we're hardwired to conquer those as best we can. But you heard Phil say it, when you have a significant other, you've also got a responsibility. It isn't about being a dictator to all those living in your home, it's about being a facilitator. Dreams can be accomplished, absent our family for sure. But honestly, that's the easy way. A true leader understands that the role isn't about what I can do alone, but what we can do together. And while choosing to leave the Red Sox felt like failure at the time, it opened the door to a new path, where Phil met his wife, Alisa, but pro sports was still coursing through his veins. He was undone. Because if you tell me no, then I really need to really figure out a way to sell it, or maybe this truly isn't the way that we need to go. And it makes you really second guess everything, which I think for me is a challenge, but also it's a blessing at the same time, because simply stated, she's not going to let me do anything stupid on my own. Right, right. I think one of the things that you alluded to that weighs into this is it's not often that someone gets an opportunity in professional sports who walks away from it, who gets that opportunity again. So you can walk out the door thinking, this is it. Like I had my shot, I took it, it didn't work out, that's over. Let's go do other things. That's not your story. You got another opportunity and you've had a few other opportunities. Talk me through the transition back into pro sports and what that meant to you both as a clinician but more importantly as a man. I was working for the Air Force and as a defense department contractor, and that was awesome. I had a great time. However, it wasn't financially viable. It just wasn't. And I felt as though I wasn't growing as a professional, as a clinician, as a leader, I wasn't growing. And I felt as though, what's the next step? So I ended up getting married. Our wedding was awesome. And a week later, the Boston Red Sox called. Literally a week after we got married and I was a little bit caught off guard because I was like, it's January, spring training's a month, like, what? And I remember a lot of those turn the lights off moment in the office. I remember, you know, how I felt when I was asking for help. I remember the success that we had on the field, the success that we had, medically speaking, the opportunities for learning and all of that. And that was very difficult time. And the head athletic trainer for the Boston Red Sox, Brandon Henry, instilled this in us. You have a dollar a day, okay? It's up to you to decide how much of that dollar you divvy out to what needs attention and what you should really prioritize and what can wait until the next day when you have more in your bank account. And at the time that was for me, I needed to devote all my time to this because if this can become a reality, what does this look like and where does this set us up? Me and my wife and our future family and so on, like where does this get us? And there was more of a long-term trajectory working for the club than there was with the Air Force at the time. And so for me, that was, the answer was easy. I would much rather say we tried and it didn't work, than not try and hope that it did. So that was to me the justification for the why to get back and gaining outside experience to be able to take back was an even bigger reason to say, how can we go back to change this for the better? I think that concept of being able to go back and what can I change, what can we make better with outside experience really drove me to say this is the path that we need to go. Yeah. Had you gone on that linear path and not taken the detour, the side route, you may or may not be in a different place professionally. Maybe you've got more experience, whatever. How do you think you as a clinician were different the second time around with the Red Sox organization as opposed to how you would have been if you would have just soldiered on through that middle? I think, first of all, I think that handling personality types, I think personality types in different regions of the country, different cities, all of that plays a factor in my opinion. But seeing the militaristic style of leadership and how that's not always conducive, but also seeing how, for example, in a high school setting, like, you're restrained to tax implications and we're playing with taxpayer dollars and not necessarily just the private entity's dollars, dealing with different groups of different stakeholders, like parents versus agents versus front offices versus this. I think all of that has changed me for the better. So that way you can help to diversify your style of communication and communicating with parents at the high school setting versus communicating with people that have eagles and stars on their chest is wildly different, yet similar at the same time. And then you couple in agents of multi-million dollar athletes. And I think it's helped. I think globally it's helped to aid in the communication, which subsequently leads to better relationships and better rapport, but also taking that step back to say, all right, what's the root cause of the issue? If there is one and if there's not, how do we make sure that we don't create one? Yeah, I think just global communication, rapport building and relationships. Yeah, it boils down to, you hit the nail on the head, it's communication, but also there's a maturity that comes with that and understanding that sometimes it's good to press and be vigilant in my communication. Other times, sometimes you just got to let the cake bake. And I am not a patient man. We in athletics have been enculturated with this idea that immediately is too slow. It needs to have happened yesterday. And that can seep into your soul sometimes and it's toxic. And I think that for me, being in that high pressure athletic environment, out of it, back into it, it taught me the importance of just letting things unfold. And I don't always have to have my foot on the gas in order to be good. So you're back, and once again, things don't always go exactly the way we would have scripted them. So, what do your days look like today? And maybe that's, I need to preface that, it's September 8th, so your day today is going to look vastly different five months from now, but what's the life of a minor league baseball athletic trainer look like? The life of a minor league athletic trainer in pro baseball is, it's not what it used to be. We were having conversations about this last night with some of the guys that have been here before I was here on my first tour of duty. We would go 17, 18, 20 days straight with no off day. We would be here for three, there for four, home for seven, back on the road for seven to 10 days and then have an off day. Now you're in one city for five days with an off day on Monday, 99% of the time uses a travel day. So wake up around 10, 30, 11, get to the ballpark around one o'clock. Start your rehab guys, treatment sessions, some admin duties that we need to get done, whether that's, you know, setting up logistics in hotels for the next road trip, figuring out where we're gonna get a lift in at, what can we have available for us at the stadium. As guys start to roll in, we start just treating guys, getting pitches ready to go out and throw, do their pregame throwing. Bullpen sessions, BP on field, 99% of the time there's gonna be a phone call to our minor league athletic training coordinator to discuss like, hey, this is what so and so looks like today, he's good to go. And then those conversations are probably with conversation with coaching staff. This is our injury reports of the day. This is what we have going on. Back to treatments, back outside to observe BP. A lot of people don't know, but BP is where things tend to happen, whether somebody sprains an ankle because they decide that they want to go power shag in the outfield and they haven't done that in years. Don't know. Or somebody takes the baseball to the face. You just never know. And so covering BP, doing all that, back inside for getting the starting pitcher ready to go, and it's game time. We're playing and just hoping that I don't have to step out on the field. Yeah, exactly. Post game, it's relatively simple. Some quick post game treatments, anything popped off, no. Notes, gone by 11. Do it all over again the next day. Did you hear that, students? Phil said notes. He does notes at the end of the day. I do write notes. Some of them are rather extensive. But also, my job is different. I'm the assistant coordinator, so I'm the minor league number two. So I specifically oversee Florida and the Dominican. Those days start earlier. And my athletic trainer that I supervise down in Dominican will call and say, Hey, this is what we got going on with films for today. I really have that information of my coordinator, as well as the front office. And so same thing with Florida things and happenings is that's tends to how it should work and how it presents. But for example, like I'm here today in Atlanta because our AAA club is here playing the AAA affiliate for the Atlanta Braves and one of our staff athletic trainers is out and they need somebody to come cover so I'm here we just signed a couple guys two days ago and so trying to build a relationship build a rapport integrate them into our organizational programming is always nice especially when they can build that rapport with some of our staff as well and that they could see that it's not just one guy it's multiple people that be in it. And so my job is to at the end of the day, make sure that all of our systems are running smoothly. Yeah. Go where I'm told. Yeah, there's a fair amount of that. The real critical piece of this show, I think, is redefining our relationship with failure. So often we run from failure. Nobody wants to fail. How would you describe your relationship with failure at this point in your life. The role of failure plays a big role. I think that sense of failure is never one that one should want to endure or whatever, but at the same time, it's something that is very necessary. I think it's super necessary to fail. I think it's super necessary to constantly have that understanding of this can go south and this can go south fast. But I also think that it's healthy to have that in your mind but also understand that what can we do to minimize it and the sting of the fail. What can we do to maximize the next step post fail and to really take advantage of that. And I think it's a tough concept to really wrap your head around, but failure is going to happen. It's just a matter of how often are we going to allow it to happen? And are we going to sit there and dwell on the failure itself? I take pride in saying that since being in my role now, that the same mistakes, in my opinion, haven't been made twice because you learn the first time. And I firmly believe that sometimes it's okay to take a step back so we can continue to move forward. Yeah, I think you're spot on. It's hard to see in the moment, but the most skill, I'm not a climber, but I've seen several documentaries where they talk about sometimes the best path is not straight up. You need to sometimes work down the mountain to find the way up. And I think for us, we're dealing, and I won't put myself in your shoes, but you're dealing with athletes who are in the midst of a very fine window of their life in which they can be highly successful. And that window's closing every day. And they are in the midst of a setback. They didn't pick that injury, that hamstring strain, that ankle sprain, that shoulder surgery, and helping them navigate this relationship with failure. That's important for you to show mastery of as a man, but it's also important for you to be able to imbue that into the people who are counting on you to help deliver them out of this season of failure. And there's a trust that has to be built there. I had a conversation with a pitcher yesterday. I said, this is the first time that you've thrown a complete season without injury, and you've jumped three levels in one season, which is not very common. It's okay to know that the volume, you're not used to the volume, right? But let's look back on the global body of work before we start navigating down a path of. I'm not it's not it's done, my season's done. Technically, yeah, your season might be done. We have two weeks left. Is it worth really trying to push and then we cause an injury and then now you're not ready to go for spring training? Now you're down in Fort Myers grinding it out with us doing rehab. Or is it better to just say, let's keep it low, we'll simmer now, we'll rest, and then we'll come back ready to go because now we've seen it. I think we have to look at the global body of work instead of just being in our own little mindset in these blinders. And that to me was just a recycle of stuff that I've went through and experienced as well as currently going through. Like how can I ask the blinders? Yeah. And isn't it easy to see that for other people, but so hard for us to recognize in ourselves, like the part of the growth cycle, and it's a cycle, it's circular. But if we don't close it with the reflection, it stops being a cycle. I just grew and I didn't learn from it. And I grow and I didn't learn from it. But it's the reflection piece that allows us to figure out, oh, that's what I, like you said, it's one thing to fail. It's another to make the same mistake multiple times. That's when I, as a leader, get upset. People aren't listening to me. Maybe my communication's off, whatever. But if you're really focused on growth, absolutely fail. Failure means you're trying new things. Don't continue to do the same thing wrong. But we've got to reflect on our practice, and we're our worst enemy. We work long hours and irregular schedules, so we don't take a lot of time to reflect, but it's a critical thing. I want to land this plane. We've got two questions left for you. I love music and the emotions that they can frequently represent. If we were watching a montage of your life, what song would be playing in the background? Oh man, that's tough. Man, I couldn't tell you right now. I have all this music in my head and a lot of the same songs play in my mind every day or in real life on the field, but I think for me, it's not a specific song. It's more of just like a vibe. It's just super chill, but groovy, bumpy. I don't really know how to describe it, but I haven't really been listening to any specific artists recently or any specific genre. It's just been just vibey. And Tash Sultana has been my vibe lately. And I know that sounds real against the grain, but Tash Sultana, incredible, incredible artist, plays the piano, plays the guitar, one person band, she's awesome. And super vibey music, and yeah, that's what's been on my list. I feel it. That's Udo T, very introspective, and yeah, I hear what you're selling there. Yeah, but I will say this, Rod Wave has not put out a bad album. I'm a big Rod Wave guy. Oh yeah, I don't know. I wish we would have been able to see him in Tampa when we went and saw Beyonce, but he wasn't there. Phil, certainly you're not this sage old veteran who's reflecting back on a life that's spent. You've got a lot of years ahead of you, we know I think what remains undone is just the path to ultimate happiness is in the career, right? What is success? What is happiness? And I think it's super subjective. Happiness is joy, happiness is pride, but I also think happiness is also just being humbled and seeing the work that you've done come to fruition, whether that's seeing an athlete be successful or the birth of your first child or finding out that you are pregnant. But just trying to find joy in the little things for me has been the biggest thing as well as just trying to be better about the relationships that I have and relationships that I keep. Yeah, I think that's still what's undone. I don't think that'll ever get done, but so long as we're striving for that, I think that's, what's the most important. Yeah. You're scratching me where I itch because as you're talking, I'm thinking last year was hard for me. We had a cohort that for whatever reason, they didn't connect with me. I don't know if it was scheduling or what, but at the end of the year, we always say we're not going to be social media friends until you graduate. I don't know that I got one request from that bunch, and I'm not calling anybody out, but I also have interviewed Dustin, and you, and Stacy, and Michaela's on my list. For me, it's surreal and proud dad moment to be able to connect with you all in this way as the mature, awesome, competent professionals that you are out in the world doing great things. Man, you said it, like your influence, it carries forward and so it gives you an opportunity to continue to invest knowing that hopefully you left the world a better place. Yeah, absolutely. And it's always been an honor and a privilege to, one, be associated with you, and also this little square that we're in. But also, just to be able to say, I can make a phone call right now and not necessarily get the answer that I want, but get something that I need, whether it's positive or negative, like, whatever. But I think that's what I'm most happy about. That's what I'm most humbled about. That's just me. And I hope that I know Dustin is listening. And anybody else that was associated with us or came up with this or went through class, my number hasn't changed. I'm not ever gonna change the number. I'm always here. I'm not hard to find. That's a great segue. How can listeners connect with you? Even if they don't have that, I'm not asking you for your cell phone number, but what's the best way to follow what you're doing? I think the best way to follow is just phone call, just call me. If I don't answer, I'll call you back. It might be an hour later, it could be two minutes later, you never know, but just a phone call, should be a text. But I think that's the best way to get ahold of me because 99% of the time I'm not where people think I am. You don't have a growing TikTok presence like Dustin. I'm on the socials, but I hide off in the shadows and just post when I feel like I need to, aka my wife's birthday at Christmas. Understood. Phil, it's been a pleasure. It always is, but I look forward to this conversation. I'm thrilled that we had a chance to connect. Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. I know we've been talking about it for a while, but my season doesn't really stop. No, I understand. My name is Phil Milan and I'm undone. In the weeks that followed our interview, Phil got some career related info that no one wants to hear. Finally, baseball has improved over the years for staff members, but it can still be a tough job with long hours and challenging pay. It can also be a tumultuous and rocky path, with year to year contracts, hit or miss leadership, jealousy, envy, and a whole basket full of things that can make it a really, really tough job. Phil's contract wasn't renewed. I have a thousand reasons why I know Phil Malone will end up on his feet in a role where he, as his mom predicted many years ago, is helping. Where he is applying the lessons he's learned through both success and failure, where he can be 100% authentically himself, working under leadership that wants to help him continue to develop. I know it's hard, it's lonely, it's difficult to stare down a dream and feel like you've been spit out. But Phil, I'm proud of you. I believe in you. From the bottom of my heart, I love you in the socially approved manner in which a professor and a former student, or just two dudes, should. You've got this. You aren't done yet. I'm thankful to Phil for giving of his time and sharing his journey, and I hope you found as much enlightenment and inspiration, and maybe a laugh or two, from this episode like I did. For more info on it, be sure to check it out on the web. Simply go to undonepodcast.com backslash EP60 to see the notes, links, and images related to today's guest, Phil Malone. If you're listening, I've got a question for you and I want to hear your answer. Phil's had more than one pivot in his journey that he's later been thankful for. What unexpected plot twists in your story are you most thankful for and why? Go to the Undone Podcast Facebook or Instagram pages where you'll see the posts and artwork from this episode along with this question and weigh in. As we discussed, the best learning only comes through reflection. So reflect. Coming up I've got entrepreneur Nick Hutchinson, podcaster and financial planner Paul Finner, and an exciting new series of mini documentaries that I'm working on that I can't wait to tell you more about. I also owe you a word to the third or two so that we can reflect back on some of the things we've been learning in this past few months. So stay tuned. This and more coming up on Becoming Undone. Becoming Undone is a NitroHype Creative Production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. If you or someone you know has a story of resilience and victory to share for Becoming Undone, contact me at undonepodcast.com. Follow the show on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn at becomingundonepod. And follow me at TobyJBrooks on X, Instagram, and TikTok. Listen, subscribe, and leave me a review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening and for all your support. Until next time, keep getting better. Outro