EP61: LEADERSHIP Roundtable with Dr. Michael Galyean, Dr. Erin Justyna, Magie Lacambra, and John Okerson

About The Guests:

• Dr. Mike Galyean is a Professor and the Former Provost and Chief Academic Officer at Texas Tech University.
• Dr. Erin Justyna is the Associate Provost for Student Affairs at the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center.
• Magie Lacambra was the Head Football Athletic Trainer at the University of Arizona and is now the Team Sports Manager for the Western United States for  Gatorade Sports Marketing.
• John Okerson is a retired First Sergeant from the 82nd Airborne Division in the U.S. Army.

Summary:

Toby Brooks reflects on his podcast, Word to the Third, and shares his progress in reaching his goal of 75 episodes in the first year. He then introduces four guests who discuss their experiences and insights on leadership. Dr. Mike Galyean talks about the challenges of assessing one's own performance as a leader and the importance of communication. Dr. Erin Justyna emphasizes the value of understanding key metrics and providing meaningful communication to assess the performance of those you lead. Magie Lacambra highlights the importance of helping underperforming individuals by providing guidance and support, while also recognizing and encouraging high performers. John Okerson discusses the significance of understanding individual potential and the need for continuous learning and growth as a leader.

Key Takeaways:

• Assessing one's own performance as a leader can be challenging, but feedback from those you work closely with can provide valuable insights.
• Understanding key metrics and effective communication are essential for assessing the performance of those you lead.
• Providing guidance and support can help underperforming individuals improve their performance, while recognizing and encouraging high performers can help maintain their optimal performance.
• Continuous learning and growth are crucial for effective leadership.

Quotes:

• "A sense of when I was doing a good job is what I would get from talking with the people I was working with." - Dr. Michael Galyean
• "Effective communicators are almost always effective leaders." - Dr. Michael Galyean
• "As long as you keep those three essentials in mind and understand what is critical, you can effectively assess performance." - Dr. Michael Galyean
• "Acknowledging someone's effort and helping them see a different perspective can improve their performance." - Dr. Erin Justyna
• "Leadership is not something that comes easy. You always have to be willing to grow and learn." - John Okerson

Transcript

0:00

Greetings and welcome back. It is Word to the Third, my reflections on purpose, life and growth. I'm Toby Brooks. I'm a speaker, author, professor and forever student. Each week on Becoming Undone, I bring you guests who have dared bravely, risked mightily, and grown relentlessly. High achievers who've transformed from falling apart to falling into place. But every once in a while I take some time to reflect, refine, and reprocess on Word to the Third. This week I am furiously trying to get my work done in time for Thanksgiving, and 2023 has been a year with much to be thankful for. I think with a strong final push, I can at least hit my revised mark of 75 episodes in year one. And I'm proud of that. Originally, the goal was 150 episodes. But after one of my guests, Ramadas, happened to plant the seed that another master's degree might be a good idea, my priorities, not to mention my time, shifted. I'm currently finishing up two classes, organizational behavior and then a data-driven decisions class. For org, I'm working on a fun project that I thought would make for a cool episode, you know, double-dipping and all. I had to interview five different people who I admire as leaders and interview them with a series of questions that I also had to create. No sweat for a podcaster, right? So I picked my five, and what follows are four of their chats with me about how they know they've done a good job, how they know others have done a good job, how to motivate those who are struggling, how to keep high performers engaged, and lastly, what is their best advice for leadership. Up first is my mentor and friend, Dr. Mike Galyen. Dr. Galyen's leadership of a massive 40,000 plus student enterprise is one of leadership on a scale I can barely imagine right now. But he was kind enough to lend his time and thoughts for my project. Hope you'll enjoy. Take a listen. All right, joining me today, I've got Dr. Mike Galyen, former provost and professor at Texas Tech University. Thanks for joining me, Dr. Galyen. Glad to be here today, Toby. Thank you. So, as we shared off camera, I've got a few questions about leadership and I figured with your role being at the absolute highest levels in a an R1, a major university, that your insights would be really helpful. So my first question is, how do you know when you have done a good job and what are some measures or metrics you rely on in making that assessment? That's a great question, especially in the provost position, that was always a challenge, trying to figure out when you were doing a good job because you've got an awful lot of people that you're interacting with and an awful lot of responsibilities, so that is a challenge. I mean, obviously a simple answer would be there's lots of metrics that I think are indicative of whether you're doing a good job, whether you're a provost at a university or a CEO of a business. I mean, obviously if the business is doing well or if the university is doing well in terms of enrollment growth and research expenditures and all the things that we track, those are certainly indicators that the job is going well. I think as much as anything, to me, a sense of when I was doing a good job is what I would get from talking with the people I was working with. The people I was working with closely, for example, in the provost office, you've got several vice provosts responsible for a number of different activities. And regularly speaking with them, kind of getting a sense of how things are going with them is key to understanding how the overall organism is working. But I think beyond that, actually, in my case, talking with the faculty, so in a business context, maybe that's talking with individual workers at times. It's a little difficult to do because you kind of get consumed by meetings at certain levels, but we can make opportunities to do that. I think it's very important to kind of get that feedback from the real boots on the ground. So that's a pretty broad answer, not very specific, but it is in a big organization really getting a sense of where you are and how it's going is difficult. I think you can be fooled, you know, by just looking, I've seen that happen. I've seen people, if you look at their metrics, you'd think, wow, they're just doing a whiz bang job. And then you find out there's a culture underneath that isn't going too well. So it's a complicated process to figure out how you're doing. And I think it does take as much as anything, communication at a variety of levels. Yeah. I think that's a great segue into my next question is, how do you know when someone you work with or someone who reports directly to you has done a good job and what are some measures or metrics that you've relied on in making those assessments? Well, again, I think the responsibilities associated with the job for a lot of people, there are very well-defined metrics that you can look at and see how things are going. We were talking with one of our vice provost who was responsible for our distance education off-campus kinds of activities. And it was clear to me in some areas we were not growing where we should. We weren't growing enrollment in some of our off-campus sites. And, you know, overall, this person was doing a great job, but they were getting spread a little too thin. So we had to have a conversation about, you know, hey, let's focus in on some things that I know are key to your job, and let's work on these metrics right now because that's where we need some help. So you really have to, I think, understand what the key metrics are for people. Not get too far down in the weeds, focus in on the things that are really critical, and again, communicate effectively with people who are working for you that you think they're doing a great job, there's nothing we need to do, I mean, you're going to keep it up, or there's some tweaks we need to look at and focus in on those. In any position, it is so easy to get off on a tangent. And so you have to kind of remind yourself before you start talking with those folks, okay, what are the really important things here we need to focus on? Sure. I think that's also a great lead into the next one. And you alluded to maybe a potential solution you had in one specific example, but say in the event you or even someone that you lead is not hitting the metrics, whatever those were that were established, what are some strategies you've used that have helped you to effectively move them toward more optimal performance? I think the key thing is for them to get an appreciation of what, what the essential elements of the job are, you know, for all of us, it's really easy to stray off that path. I think a good leader of a large organization has a means or an ability, maybe is a better way to say it, to get people to buy into the big picture. In universities, for example, it's We need to enroll students, we need to successfully graduate students, take them to degree completion. We need to have great research and creative activities. There's only about three things we have to worry about, and then outreach and engagement with the communities that we relate to. So as long as you keep those three essentials in mind and then understand, okay, related to those three essentials, what is it that this person does? What are they not quite doing right? And how can you work with them? I think communication is probably the greatest and most significant thing I learned as an administrator. And that's not necessarily communication in a big meeting. We all have those. I suppose that must be a requisite of being an administrator of any kind is that you have these formal meetings where you promulgate information mostly. Those are not the kind of meetings that help people do a better job. I mean, maybe occasionally there's something in there that will help them, but usually it's those one-on-one or very small group meetings with key individuals that are gonna move the organization. You know, big organizations are like big ships. They're hard to turn in any direction, much less turn around. So you kind of want to stay on that course and work with key individuals to help you stay on that course. But so I usually, when I knew I had a problem with something, would work kind of one on one with somebody for a while and give them some ideas about things we could do. Get their ideas, try to come to a mutual buy in of how do we address this and move forward in that way. You know, occasionally you realize, hey, after a year of trying, this isn't going to work. And that's when the tough decisions come into play. But most of the time they worked. I mean, people want to do a good job, I think. So if they're willing to put the effort in to do that, just getting them on the right track usually will solve the problem. Sure. Well, the flip side of that, and this might harken back more to your work as a chair or as a dean, where you have a little bit more opportunity to be involved in the day-to-day. But in the event someone you lead is performing satisfactorily, what are some strategies you use to help encourage them to lean into that? I think you need to make sure whether their responsibilities are adequate for their skills. And by that I mean, we can underutilize people that are really capable people by giving them a bunch of menial kinds of things that are important. But maybe somebody else could do that and they could focus on implementing the new kind of change associated activities that you really wanna do. So I think first of all you have to figure out what people's skill sets are, what they're really good at, and where they could fit in things that you want to happen in the organization. Once you do that I think you just need to routinely challenge people to step up to the plate to a little bit higher level. I often, especially with at the Dean's level, with associate deans, I usually look at those folks as someone who I thought one of these days might, you know, might want to be a dean. And so what are the kind of mentoring things I can do or job related activities I can assign them that will help them move on to the next step? And if they are that kind of person to have those types of conversations with them, because a lot of times that can be really encouraging to people to know that you think they can move up to the next level. Absolutely. Well, last one, and this is my favorite one. I'm looking forward to this one. As a leader, what would you say is the most valuable piece of advice or info that you've ever encountered when it comes to inspiring people to be their best, or even yourself? Wow, that is a challenging question. You know, I think it does really go back to being an effective communicator. Effective communicators are almost always effective leaders. At least, I don't know that I've seen too many cases where, you know, there are some people who aren't that great at communicators that for whatever reason have been successful. I would argue they could have been even more successful if they were really good communicators. So, I mean, I think, you know, I learned very quickly in administration and at any level of working with people, that almost every problem traces back to communication in some way or another. So really focusing on meaningful communication, again, not... Even though you have to do it, information flow is one thing, but that's not necessarily... Producing a glossy magazine is very different than really working with somebody to accomplish a task. And figuring out how to do that and how to motivate people. I think the other thing that's really important is to keep your eye on the ball, to use the athletic analogy. Great players somehow have that ability to always know where the ball is and how to get there and do something that's gonna be positive for the team. And I think the same is true for great leaders. They don't forget what the goal is, because it is in large organizations, as we said earlier, really easy not to lose sight of that. And so I've rambled a little bit, but I think, keeping your eye focused on what the big goals are. I mean, yeah, we all have little goals, sub goals or activities that we want to accomplish that are important to the overall organization. But every organization has big ticket items. And I think administrators at the top need to keep focused on those big ticket items and reminding the people who work with them about those big ticket goals that we have. Next up, my friend and colleague, Dr. Erin Justina agreed to chime in. Erin is the Associate Provost for Student Affairs at the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center, where she serves in a variety of roles and leads a large and diverse team of folks whose jobs are built around helping students find success. Her office's Friday challenges are stuff of legend and so fun, but they're just one example of the people first kind of leader that she is. Take a listen to my friend, Dr. Erin Justina. Erin, thanks for joining me today. Yeah, thanks for having me. Looking forward to this. I am consistently impressed and maybe even a little jealous about the way you lead your diverse and fun team, your Fridays are fantastic, but we know that you do more than just fun Friday games. There's actually work to be done and heavy work sometimes. So the first question I have is for you personally, how do you know when you've done a good job and what are some measures or metrics that you rely on in making that assessment? Oh man, there's so many aspects right to our work and obviously we're in the field of students. So certainly one measure of if I'm doing well or succeeding is going to be how students are doing, you know, and the student situations that come across my desk, which are sometimes the most dire or stressful situations, that we get those students taken care of, whatever that looks like, whether that means getting them resources or whether that means that they need to take a break and we support them in that or whatever it may be. And so that's certainly one major aspect. But then there's, you know, like you said, I do have that team and no, we don't just play in developing them as leaders. And I think success for me with that looks like when they're in a space and they do their best job and or I hear that they've displayed values that are consistent with kind of our vision in our office. And so I think those are two of the main ways that I would say I look at it. Great. Well, you kind of alluded to my question too, which is how do you know when someone you work with or directly reports to you has done a good job and what are some measures or metrics that you rely on in making that assessment? Yeah. So, you know, we've got our system here at the Health Sciences Center for assessing folks and it's performance-based, but it's also values-based. And I don't think either one of those can really trump the other. It's really about both. So, I've got a lot of offices where you have to be super efficient, like the Registrar's Office and the Financial Aid Office, but then I've got a lot of people that do life and student disability services where it's really much more holistic. And so each group is going to sort of have different metrics around that. At the end of the day, I stress strongly with my folks that it's people over process. So I never want to hear that we did something that hurt somebody when we when we can alter a process. You know, there are laws we have to follow and and OPs and things of that nature, but there's a lot of times we can adjust. So I think for me, success for my folks is being sort of both efficient and nimble. I wanna hear that you went into a room and you knew your stuff and you had your data and all of that, but then that you were flexible enough to look at the situation holistically and make the best choice in that moment, not getting stuck with how we've always done it or what should be done. Yeah, well, I'll be 100% transparent. That's why I wanted to tap your shoulder for this one because you are so people-centric and person-first, person over process, you said that. In the event you or maybe someone you lead isn't performing satisfactorily, what are some strategies you would use to effectively move toward more optimal performance? I have to think because, again, each area is so different. You know, if it's a skills thing, then we're gonna talk about skills and we're gonna talk about resources that can get them there, whether it's some sort of class they need to take because it's, you know, technical skills, or if it's leadership and management of other humans, then let's get you in a space where you can practice that. I try to do, you know, coaching, essentially, every month with my folks. They bring updates, but we also just talk about their growth and things of that nature. Usually that's enough to get people there. Very rarely at the level of people that are reporting to me, do I have to use true like corrective action plan or anything of that sort. It really is more about having really tough conversations sometimes. I have my personality and I'm pretty assertive and I've been around and I feel like I know some things and so I'm not scared to push back and ask them to defend their situation and talk me through. And I think that helps them grow. If they have to defend to me why they did what they did, they either can and then we both learn from that or they can and then that forces that reflection of, ooh. I don't know how many times in the last, actually, month I've had my folks say, you're not gonna write me up for that. Like, no, just do better, you know? I'm not dealing with high school kids who are not showing up to class or whatever. They're directors and I believe in them. So it's really just about coaching them to get on there. Sure, I'm sure that goes a long way in inspiring them to want to do better for the next time. Well, the flip side of that is one that I don't know whether it happens as frequently or maybe it's more frequently, but in the event you've got a rock star who's just killing it, what are some things you can do that can help encourage continued optimal performance? Yeah. What I try to do with that is one, recognize it. We've got the stuff our university does, the ace cards and those types of activities. But I also, if, for example, we've just gotten a couple of designations for serving veterans well, Sarah Henley's office. And I mean, I'm gonna send that directly to the provost and the president and highlight that because that doesn't happen every day that you get a direct email to the president saying you're doing a good job. We also do quarterly meetings where, I have weekly meetings with my direct reports, but we have quarterly meetings for the whole area. And we highlight those folks there and talk about what they've done well and hopes that it will inspire other people. But also, everybody sort of has different ways they want to be recognized. I really don't like to be called out in a room like that. So that would actually make me unhappy and I do it to them. But some people really need that, right, to be called out and recognized there. I also try to put more resources towards those folks. A lot of times it will be like, oh, they're doing great. So they don't need to go to conference or they don't need to take that leadership class. But sometimes those are the people that you should show that you value that and keep them moving in that direction. So I try to get them involved in committees on campus. If they're great, then I want them in a room showing everybody on campus that they're great. Yeah. Excellent. Well, last one, and it's my favorite one. As a leader, what would you say is the most valuable piece of advice or info that you've ever encountered when it comes to inspiring peak performance in your team members? See, when you first started that question, I had my immediate answer, but it wasn't related to inspiring others. So let me think. Gosh, I hope it's modeling, you know? I hope it's just being a real human being that's a leader and showing in my mind how it's done right, you know, that we put people first and we do our job and we excel and the expectation is that we're awesome at it and we're also kind while we're doing it. And so I think it really is just that, you know, that leaders eat last is one thing that's coming to my mind, you know, really modeling that humility, nothing is beneath us as leaders. Yeah, modeling, I would say. I hope that's right. I hope that that might work. I hope they're not like that lady. No. Well, Erin, I can't thank you enough for joining me. I appreciate the insights. And I will say, lots of times in your position, you only hear about when things go wrong. If students are having a great time, they're not seeking out people to tell you that they're having a great time. So I will tell you, you've been a powerful addition to the team here. You and your team do a tremendous job and our students, whether they realize it or not, the advocacy that you and your team provide them is second to none. And I want to applaud you for the job that you do. And I know it's a heavy load sometimes, but you carry it really, really well. Thank you. That's why we need the levity, right? Right, exactly. Batting third in this episode is Maggie LaCombra, former supervisor and now dear friend. Maggie was the head football athletic trainer at the University of Arizona when I arrived on campus as a new grad assistant AT way back in 1998. Maggie was one of a handful of women ATs working in football at the time, but she was an incredibly humble and gracious leader. I'm going to get Maggie on for a full episode one of these days so she can tell her whole story, but after she left U of A she joined up with Gatorade Sports Marketing after the 1998 season and she's been there ever since. With Gatorade she manages the accounts of teams and universities that have Gatorade contracts and I've always been impressed with her incredible work ethic and the way she leads by example. I hope you'll enjoy guest three, Maggie LaCombra. Hey, great to have you. Thanks for joining me today. Toby, it's a pleasure to be here with you and speak with you again. Well, as we shared off camera, I've got five questions that I'm asking of a number of leaders of all different shapes and ages and backgrounds. And I respect you as a leader. You were my boss or kind of boss for a while. I never directly reported to you, but certainly have been an admirer and followed your career since we parted ways. But the first question has to deal with yourself. How do you know when you've done a good job and what are some measures or metrics that you rely on in making that assessment? Yeah, that's a big question. And I have to look back and I think I would answer that as just reflection of myself of like do I have any regrets about what I did or do I feel like, oh man, I wish I should have done that or I didn't do this or why did... If I have questions about my process or my actions after it's completed, then it's not right. And so I think I have to feel comfortable with what I did, the process, and the results for it to have felt like I did the right thing. And I'm my own worst critic, and I think a lot of us probably tend to do that. I know you are. So that's my gauge right there. Yeah, that's great. I think a lot of us, sometimes we have that gut feeling, but actually looking for metrics, actual measures that can show us whether we're being successful or not. I know for myself, I probably do a better job of that with others than I do with myself. It's been eye-opening for me. Question 2 is related to this. How do you know when someone you work with or someone who reports to you has done a good job? If Aaron Barnett's listening, or someone else who's been under your charge, how do you know when they've done a good job and what are some measures or metrics you can use in making that assessment? I think you might know this, but that I'm kind of a task-oriented individual in steps, right, in following steps. And sometimes I have to get away from that a little bit of realizing that, okay, here's the start and here's the goal. Now, does it matter how you get from the start to the goal, as long as the goal is correct and complete? For a long time, I was really stuck on those steps of understanding, okay, you have to do this first, you have to do that next, and keep going, going, until you get to the goal or the end result, which hopefully is the way you want it to be. And I've had to realize that, you know, there's a saying that my dad would say in Spanish, which I'm not going to, I'm going to loosely translate it, but basically, every teacher has their own method or every professor has their own way, right? And so that is my way doesn't mean it has to be your way, as long as the end product is what we're both trying to achieve. So that's what I've had to learn to let go of being so tightly connected to the steps and just, okay, did the end product, is it what we were asking for? Is it what we were looking for? Is it what we need? Is it at the level that we need it at? And so that's how I see is if somebody, if they're given a task and said, do X, is X done as best as possible? Or does it look like they cut corners or they took a fast route there sort of thing. So I just look at the total body of work at the end and if it's what I was waiting for or hoping for, then it's complete and they've done a good job. Excellent. So I guess related to that one, in the event that someone you lead doesn't perform well, whatever that metric that you've established is and they underperform or they don't hit a target or a mark. What are some strategies you might use to help move them toward improved performance? That's another one that I would say. Back when we worked together in our previous life, if I knew then what I know now, boy, you'd have a whole different experience. I think it's, and I learned this, believe it or not, from a, when I was doing student teaching and working on my teaching credential and my master's in education, is that the system that was incorporated then to teach you how to, and this was for physical education, so it was very active, action motivated, or action classwork, not just sitting and reading kind of thing. that if somebody does something that they shouldn't be doing, instead of harping on them for that aspect, is instead is point out a positive, okay? And point out something good that happened and relay of how can you make what the end product was better by focusing on a positive aspect of what they're doing. And so I think acknowledging that somebody's effort is there, acknowledging that they put the time into it, and just asking them if, kind of putting a question back is, did you think of this? Or what do you think about that? And kind of making them, almost forcing them to see it in a different light, that it may or may not have them see what is complete or what is incomplete, but just helping them as opposed to just, man, you didn't do this right. Instead, it's just helping them see a different avenue or a different perspective of how that end product could be. Yeah, I think that's very well said. The difference between it feeling like fault finding and it feeling like reflection and learning and growth is critical. And I know I can be a taskmaster at times too, and if the performance doesn't match the expectation, it's really easy to fault find. But if we truly value people and their contributions to what we're doing, the goal isn't about pointing fingers, the goal is about building. Yeah, and I think if you really dissect things, people want to be successful, right? People don't wanna fail, and so I don't think somebody is going to do something trying to fail. They're trying to be successful, especially if it's an assignment. And so if you give them the benefit of the doubt that that's what their goal is and help them reach that goal, I think everybody's going to be more successful. Sure. Well, the flip side of that, instead of focusing on someone who's underperforming, what if you've got a rockstar under your charge? How do you, maybe what are some strategies that you would use to help encourage them to continue to be highly successful. Ooh, that's me asking how to work with you, Toby, right there. And so that's, yeah, actually that one's tougher, I think, because it is, you're trying to keep somebody from, you don't wanna slow them down, but you wanna make sure that they're not bored either, right? And so I think it is probably also a combination of applauding the work that they're doing, while also giving them tidbits of little extra to work on. And maybe it's refinement as opposed to completion. It's how can you make this that tiny bit better? You were able to do this, great. This is awesome. And play on the fact that their mind is in a different level than probably somebody else might be. And so how can you show them that little extra piece to go on to just keep them motivated? And it's like little tidbits of just small steps forward to keep them moving and supposed to be in like, man, that was easy. Now what do I do? Right. All right. Last one. I told you this would be quick. Wow. And this is my favorite one because I think it really gives insight into how we're all wired. As a leader, what would you say is the most valuable piece of advice or info that you've ever encountered when it comes to inspiring people to be peak performers, even yourself? That is a great question. And I have to reflect a lot on the experiences that I've had with different leadership and what has attracted me to one leader more than another probably. And I think listening and the human element have been two key things because somebody that's a leader, everybody knows they're a leader, right? Because of title, but are you a leader because you draw people to you? Are you a leader because of how you treat others? And I think if you focus on those aspects of how you're gonna treat others and bring them along and encourage them and make them feel wanted, it makes you a better leader because they're gonna automatically wanna gravitate towards you and follow you. So I think is lead by actions, lead with a human element and with example. Is I honestly, I can't ask somebody to do something that I can't, that I won't do myself. And or have the expectations for somebody else that I can't have for myself. And so I think keeping all those things in mind and just leading by example and having the human element, I think is probably, and listening, because sometimes we don't listen enough. We wanna talk to people, as opposed to talk with people and listen. Yeah, that's definitely been one of the highlights of you mentioned our previous lifetimes as clinicians. You get to work with incredible motivators and coaches who are able to bring every last drop of potential out of somebody, and you can't help but let some of those lessons kind of seep down into your soul too. So I think the human side, when I first got to Arizona and seeing Coach Tomey or Coach Olsen, like these were highly esteemed, you know, ooh that's that's Lute Olsen, but he knew everything about his players and he was able to push the right button and dial the right knob and that human element was never lost. Yep. And that makes people feel wanted and important, right? So they will gravitate and want to do things for you. So when you've got a leader that doesn't know your name, even let alone anything about your family or what your likes or dislikes are, or even your contributions to the team, then that's a whole different dynamic right there. Yeah. I think corporate America could learn a lot from athletic coaches for sure. And likewise, I think there's some powerful corporate leaders that that could offer some some positive things and I've seen some toxic sport teams too, so yeah, they're not all perfect. Yeah, it goes both ways for sure. There's lessons in all areas. Lastly for this episode, John Oakerson and I graduated high school together back in Southern Illinois, as the kids today would say, back in the 1900s. While I went away to college, John headed for the Army, where he eventually became a first sergeant in the 82nd Airborne Division, one of those crazy folks that jumps out of airplanes. But he also led troops to become their own best. I was thankful for the chance to reconnect with John and glean some of his insights on leadership from a distinguished two-decade military career. I hope you'll enjoy John Okerson. John, great to have you. Yeah, great to be here. Appreciate it. So, I looked this up on your Facebook profile, but what rank were you when you retired from the Army? I was a first sergeant, E-8. I had one more enlisted rank to go, but it was time to go. Gotcha. Well, as I shared with you off camera, the purpose of our interview tonight was to just ask a series of questions related to leadership and how you view your own performance and that of the people that serve under you. The first question is, how do you know when you've done a good job? What are some measures or metrics that you use in making that assessment? Well, I say in the military it was how well your subordinates and you know, the people around you, the people that you led, how well their career progressed, you know, like now when I stay in touch with a lot of the people that I, that served with me, you know, seeing them reach my rank or go beyond, you know, that's, that's when you know you did something right, you know, you taught them right, you led them right. That's what I always measured myself if I was doing the right thing. Yeah. Well, this one's related to that. How do you know when someone you work with or who reports to you has done a good job, or what are some measures or metrics that you rely on in making that assessment? Well, the biggest thing I think with leadership personally for me is making sure people understand what they're doing. It can be something as simple as a little task or you know a major mission or something but it they need to understand what they're going what they're doing why they're doing it how they're doing it you know all those things and when they can come back to you and every question you ask is just Roger got it boom boom it's all done that's what you know you I mean you're doing the right thing. And it's just, it's been so awesome for me through my military career to be around, you know, some of the greatest men and women that this country has to offer and I just consider myself lucky. Right, for sure. Well, let's say in the event you're, you have someone that you lead who isn't performing satisfactorily, what are some strategies you would use to get them to move closer to that expected or that optimal performance? Well, you gotta understand everybody doesn't operate the same potential. So, and leadership is something that is not, it's not one straight plate. You're gonna have different ways to lead or different ways to interact with every individual person, different styles of leadership. And if you got somebody that needs, you know, a little bit more help or needs a little bit more encouragement, I mean, that's when you time to, you know, lace up your boots and get in there and actually, you know, spend more time with them, help them establish goals or help them establish, you know, their priorities and how to get it done. So I would always just, you know, spend more time and it's just being about genuine and authentic. You know that that kind of leadership goes a long way. Yeah, well, the flip side of that. Let's say you've got someone on your team or who's in in your command who is killing it. They're doing exceptionally well. What are some strategies you would use to help encourage them to continue in that optimal performance? You know, this is one of the things I think I struggled with the most throughout my career. I see it now as I'm out of the military too, because people have a tendency is when they have that high achiever, that high performer, to use them and use them and use them. And you just kind of forget to appreciate them because they're doing so good. They don't need all that extra encouragement, or they don't need that pat on the back every day. Well, you don't think they do, because they're always doing what's right, always getting things done. And I've burnt some guys out before doing that. And it's really hard, but you have to remember that those people that don't need your constant and constant supervision need that praise or need that pat on the back. And even if it's pulling them aside and having a beer with them or something, but that's a hard one, Toby, it really is because those are hard things to deal with. I mean, as long as you're giving them that encouragement. Like I said, I think I've failed on that so many levels throughout my career is just because you spend so much time, you spend 90% of your time with 10% of your people. And I think I've seen that throughout, you know, even out of the military. Right. Well, last one, and this is frankly my favorite out of the list. As a leader, what would you say is the most valuable piece of advice or info you've ever encountered when it comes to inspiring peak performance? Leadership is not, it's not something that comes easy. You always have to be willing to grow and learn and don't ever think you're at a point where you know it all or you've topped out because anybody can teach you something even if it's you know that new employer that new soldier you can learn from them so just be honest be authentic be genuine and You know, I think you'll go really far but you just got to remember there's Learn from everybody. Well, I can't thank you enough for your time I know you've been retired for a little bit and your career has moved on into other things But I know those lessons you learned continue to serve you well. Oh, absolutely. Well, I told you I had to interview five and you heard from four already, but my last guest requested that I didn't publish her responses in this episode. I've watched my wife, Christy Brooks, manage situation after situation as a leader with a loving heart of a servant and the precision touch of a surgeon in her role as a children's minister at Highland Baptist Church. She's an incredibly kind and caring leader and if you see her give her a hard time because the world could learn a lot from her thoughts on leadership. Fist bump is not in my fighting database. No this isn't a fighting thing it's what people do sometimes when they're excited or pumped up. It's been a minute but it is time for virtual fist bumps or VFs for short. This week's VFs go to my five guests this week. I was the one with the class assignment and the tight deadline but at the drop of a hat Mike Galleon, Aaron Justina, Maggie LaCombra, John Okerson and Christy Brooks all made time for me and helped me get it done. There were illnesses, pet deaths, the start of deer season, just a whole bunch of things working against us, but y'all made it happen. So it gives me great pleasure to issue you with Becoming Undone's second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth virtual fist bumps. Pound it, blow it up, bring it in. Thanks, y'all. La la la la la. Well, that wraps up another week. What about you? What are you working on or waiting for? And what are you doing in the meantime to get better every day? I'd love to help and I'd love to hear about it. Surf over to undonepodcast.com and drop me a note. For more info on today's episode, be sure to check it out there. Simply go to undonepodcast.com backslash EP61 to see the notes, links, and images related to today's show. Coming up, I've got some exciting guests on deck, including drummer from Semisonic, Jacob Slichter. If you've heard the song Closing Time, you've heard Jacob's work. There's some more coming up on Becoming Undone. I'm Toby Brooks. This has been Word to the third. Becoming Undone is a NitroHype Creative Production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. If you or someone you know has a story of resilience and victory to share for Becoming Undone, contact me at undone podcast.com follow the show on Facebook Instagram and LinkedIn at becoming undone pod and follow me at Toby J Brooks listen subscribe leave me a review at Apple podcasts Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts Till next time everybody keep getting better you