EP65: ALL IN with Paul Fenner, Founder of TAMMA Capital, Father of Triplets Plus One, and Host of The Emotional Balance Sheet Podcast

About The Guest:

Paul Fenner is the founder of TAMMA Capital and the host of the Emotional Balance Sheet podcast. He has a background in finance and accounting and has built a successful career as a financial planner. Paul is passionate about helping families navigate the emotional and financial challenges of life transitions.

Summary:

Paul Fenner, founder of TAMMA Capital and host of the Emotional Balance Sheet podcast, shares his journey from corporate America to entrepreneurship. He discusses the challenges of balancing a career and raising triplets, and how he found the courage to pursue his own business. Paul emphasizes the importance of emotional and lifestyle planning in addition to financial planning, and how he helps families navigate these complex areas. He also discusses the role of fear in both his own life and in his work with clients, and the power of storytelling in inspiring others.

Key Takeaways:

• Paul Fenner's journey from corporate America to entrepreneurship was driven by his passion for finance and helping families navigate life transitions.
• Emotional and lifestyle planning are just as important as financial planning when it comes to achieving personal and financial goals.
• Fear can be a major obstacle in pursuing one's dreams, but it can also be a motivator for growth and change.
• The power of storytelling and sharing personal experiences can inspire and empower others to overcome their own challenges.

Quotes:

• "I think people become paralyzed by that fear. And that's one reason why people have a hard time taking the first step with working with any financial planner, let alone me." - Paul Fenner
• "I think listening to other people's stories has really helped solidify that. And again, I take all that, and I can now see how my firm has grown and developed over the last three years with the growth and the conversations and the insights of the guests I've had on my show." - Paul Fenner

Transcript

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We found out we were initially pregnant. We're like, great, one kid. I was actually living in North Carolina and Teresa was living up in Metro Detroit. And we had just made the decision that we were either gonna get divorced or she was gonna move to Carolina. And so we're like, okay, great, one baby, we can make it work. We had friends and family that lived in Carolina. Four weeks later, we found out we were having twins. We're like, okay, Carolina can still work. We can still make this work. And then week eight, which is the first ultrasound I got to go to, we found out how we got triplets. And as soon as that happened, I knew I was on my way back to Michigan because that's where the majority of our immediate family was and it was gonna take a village to pull this off. I am Paul Fenner and I am undone. Hey friend, I'm glad you're here. This is your first episode. I hope you love it. I hope you stick around that you binge these episodes and get inspired by high achievers who didn't let failure stand in the way of their eventual victory. If you're a regular, thanks again. I've learned a ton about achievement, resilience, and grit in these past 12 months. I couldn't have done it without. So for real, thank you. That said, welcome to another episode of Becoming Undone, the podcast for those who dare bravely, risk mightily, and grow relentlessly. I'm your host, Toby Brooks, a speaker, an author, and a professor. Over the past two decades, I've worked as an athletic trainer and a strength coach. And over the years, I've grown more and more fascinated with what sets high achievers apart and how their failures can frequently be the necessary steps on their paths toward success. Each week on Becoming Undone, I invite new guests to examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. I'd like to emphasize that this show is entirely separate from my role as a professor, but it's my attempt to apply what I've learned and what I'm learning and to share with others about the mindsets of high achievers. For Michigan native Paul Finner, early experiences in corporate America led to success after success, but it wasn't long before that upward career trajectory started to feel less like a gift and more like a curse. Confronted with the reality of triplets on the way and a struggling marriage with him in Carolina and his wife back in Michigan, Paul launched his own firm and steadily built a client base of his own. Today in addition to being an entrepreneur and a business owner, he's a podcaster hosting the popular Emotional Balance Sheet podcast where he regularly interviews people who have faced big challenges and career pivots, especially those with growing families. I hope you'll enjoy my conversation with Paul Finner in episode 65, Fall In. This week our guest is joining us from the lovely north of Michigan, founder of Tama Capital and host of the Emotional Balance Sheet podcast, Paul Finner. Paul, welcome to the show. Thanks Toby for having me on. It's great to have another conversation with you. Paul and I connected a while back on some social media podcasting platform and had done interviews with his show as a guest. And Paul, I loved your story and the genesis of your company. And the topic of this show is really about how we can take things that might be perceived as adversity and turn them into a springboard for success. And while I'd never want to think about family as adversity, certainly life threw you a curveball with the birth of triplets. Going back to your story, though, start at the beginning wherever that was for you. I think most times my story just begins about 13 years ago almost when when my triplets were born. Obviously there was a lot that happened prior to that but ironically I started my family office, my planning firm, Tama Capital, the same day my triplets were born. But it wasn't called Tama back then, it was called DreamWorks Capital Management. And I remember the first time I met my career mentor that kind of helped get me started, Camille Jane said, I won't work with you unless you change your name. She was right. We did a name change, but it took one more baby. So that's where we get the term triplets plus one, probably about two years after that, before we landed on the name Tama Capital, which is what Camille came up with. We call her CJ. And it stands for Teresa, Aiden, Madison, Mackenzie, and Andrew. So it's the first initial of my wife's name, Teresa, and then my triplets plus one, if you will. And it really signifies what I do, my work, my calling, if you will, and working with families from a financial planning standpoint, whether it's wealth planning, portfolio management, tax prep, that umbrella that I call family office is where it starts and Teresa and I have had this phrase for almost 13 years now like we just take things one day at a time and that one day at a time mindset has now turned into almost 13 years later our plus one will turn 11 and two more days and then I guess I might triple to be 13 in in December so it's been a wild journey and for all the ups and downs. I would have hoped and thought that I would have made it into this industry and to do what I'm doing today. But I don't know if that would have happened without the triplets. And so that's where it's like on one day, I'm like, why me sometimes? On the really bad days and then on the other days, it's yeah, this is a good life. This is a good life. I remember when I first found out we were having triplets, somebody told me, be very careful, because the days are long and the years are short. And it's the truest truism of parenting I've ever heard. And it's hard to imagine that when two more months, I'll have a set of teenagers. That's definitely a truism. We have a daughter who's a junior in college, and I was cleaning out my desk today, just I was waiting for my laptop to come back, it was being serviced by our IT folks, I got nothing to do, I will clean up my desk. I happened upon a manila folder that had princess stickers and my daughter who is a junior in college, her handwriting, she had written her name and ran out of room and wrote the rest of her name. I just saw this and I'm welling up with this emotion thinking this season of my life is over. And just then our IT person comes in, she's, I've got your laptop, it's going to be okay. Like, no, this is different. This is not because of my laptop. But you're right, those years are so fast, but those days do seem to drag on forever. It feels like sometimes you're never going to emerge from whether it's teething or potty training or whatever those things are, but eventually you do. I've also heard it said that it's real easy to see the firsts in our parenting journey. They come loudly. They scream like the first step, the first word, the first Little League game. But the lasts, they whisper, and we don't know when those occur. And as a dad, as a parent, man, it's really convicted me to be in the moment, to really drink it up because I never know when that last is going to be. Yeah, that's a really good point. I never really thought about that, because you don't know when those last are until they're over. And then you look back and I'm like, crap, if I would have known that was the last time, whatever it may have been, I would have been in the moment more, paid more attention. And that's where it's difficult. That's one of the challenges about, I think, of parenting brings. Sure. So I'm reading your bio, Bachelor's degree, Adrian College, MBA, University of Finley. You were on this career trajectory and you had roles in corporate America. And this pivot, this move, I have to think, was a pretty significant leap from the path you were on to the path that you're on today. thought process and maybe the doubt, the fear, the trepidation involved in that season of your life? There was a whole hell of a lot of that. There was a lot of that fear. I started investing when I was probably around 12 or 13 years old. I remember the first two stocks I ever bought was Microsoft and now I forget the name of golf-related company that made graphite shafts for clubs. And damn, I wish I would have held onto that Microsoft stock way back then. But I never knew that I would end up in the financial service industry, let alone working with families. I probably had changed majors four or five, I think four times officially during my undergrad degree. And I got out, went into engineering, which actually, like I said, my first job was at Kewa Island. That didn't work out. I was there for, I think, just a little over a month, came back to Michigan, and then got lucky and started working for Ford in their college development program. And then my corporate career just took off, but I always had this interest in the stock market and people knew that, and eventually I'd start fielding questions. People would ask, how do you do this? And how do you do that? And then it got to the point where people were asking me, can you just do this for me? And just friends and family, again, never thought anything about it because my corporate career had taken off. And by that time I was into, I made several transitions or pivots within my corporate career and was in finance and accounting to some degree, operations. And I just got to the point where I'm like, I'm not quite sure how long I'm gonna be able to do this. And so I started talking to financial service firms, like all the big ones you could think of, the Merrill Lynch's, the Raymond James, the Edward Jones, and I'm like, yeah, this doesn't feel good. I'm not one that wants to just call somebody 40, 50 times a day and pound and potentially harass them to get their business. And so that kind of started me on this road where I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do something. I'm gonna hang up my own shingle. I'm gonna do this my way. Because at the time I was running a hundred million dollar plus divisions of bigger companies. I'm like, I can run my own business. And that kind of got me on this track of figuring out, okay, what do I need to do? What certifications do I need to get? Like, how do I get licensed with a state or the SEC? And so I started down that road. And then that was pretty close to like, when we found out Teresa and I were having, we're pregnant. The story behind that was, we found out we were initially pregnant. We're like, great, one kid. I was actually living in North Carolina and Teresa was living up in Metro Detroit. And we had just made the decision that we were either gonna get divorced or she was gonna move to Carolina. And so we're like, okay, great, one baby, we can make it work. We had friends and family that lived in Carolina. Four weeks later, we found out we were having twins. Little did we know it was a boy and a girl. We're like, okay, no, Carolina can still work. We can still make this work. And then week eight, which is the first ultrasound I got to go to, we found out we had that boy and the girl and the boy physically split on us and that's how we got triplets. And as soon as that happened, I knew I was on my way back to Michigan because that's where the majority of our immediate family was and it was gonna take a village to pull this off. I got to that point, came back to Michigan, we had the triplets, I still had a corporate job and that's when I really started launching the firm. So I kept my full-time corporate job for the first eight years I had the firm and it wasn't till about probably now it's approaching about six years ago I came into it full-time. And one of the main reasons why I came into it full-time was we needed somebody at home more with the kids at that stage of the game, if you will. So I think they would have been in, Mack would have been in kindergarten, Tripples would have been in maybe first grade. And so both Teresa and I knew that I was gonna be the one that would have the flexibility if she was gonna keep her corporate job, which she still has today. And we just made it work. I never thought in a million years that I would be the primary caregiver, if you will, like for getting kids on the bus, getting kids off the bus, things of that nature, but we just made it work. So I had a great corporate run. It provided me a lot of different insights and experience that I was able to fold into the work that I do today, working with families. And I think besides having triplets plus one and there's a natural parenting bond and empathy I have with families I work with, there's also this understanding that I came from where a lot of my families are. They have corporate America jobs, whether they're mid-level managers, executive level, C-suite, you name it. I've had those roles before in my career and can really understand the challenges of maintaining a full-time career like that, plus trying to raise a family. And that kind of sits at the heart of what I do in trying to help families understand and face these multiple, not only financial, but more so personal priorities that are all tugging on us. Where do we go? How do we get through this? I think that's critical to understand. Seems like a lot of high achievers are wired in such a way that a side hustle is almost like a necessary offshoot. And in my dream of dreams, the side hustle could become the full-time pursuit, but it's so hard to get from day job where you're giving that company at least 40 hours of your week. And then you come home and you've got a family to take care of. And it's, it just makes it difficult to prioritize your own growth and goals. While also being, I want to give my job my full attention. I, I love it. There are definitely aspects of it that are gratifying. So you spent several years torn between or straddling corporate America versus personal business pursuits. What do you think that season of life taught you about yourself or about just the idea of being an entrepreneur? I think it reinforced something that I guess I think I was just naturally born with, which is this drive just to pursue what I really wanted to do, even when I didn't really know it. My aunt, who was also my godmother, passed away earlier this year, and she and I would always have these talks, and I would ask her, like, where did this drive come from? Because I see it in one of my kids right now. And I don't know, part of me is like, oh, that's super cool. And then the other part of me, man, hopefully that's not unhealthy. Because there was no secret to those years, Toby. People ask me, how the heck did you do it? And my answer is always, I just did. And it required a lot of work and a lot of hours. Like they're, I work a lot now. I tell people my worst day at Tama is better than my best day I ever had during my corporate career. It is just night and day different. Those are 60, 70 hour work weeks plus trying to spend a lot of time with the kids. And I'll be honest, there was sacrifice involved. There's things I don't remember about the kids growing up that I probably should have, or I should. But I also know that doing what I do now and having them see how hard dad works and that he's doing something on his own, I think that that'll pay dividends down the road when they're trying to figure things out. At least I hope so. I know for one, maybe two, that that may be the case, but the other two, I don't know. That's still a work in progress. Sure, sure. I think it's safe to say that multiple births are rarely expected. Many would say we got extra blessings or however you want to say that. But what did having multiples do for you and your wife? What lessons did you learn, do you think, through that experience? When you have multiples, you're like in this club, literally, of parents who had multiples, whether it's twins, triplets, quads or whatever. And knowing that we had a plus one after the triplets I'm really glad that we had the multiples first and then have the plus one Because I could imagine it being the other way because you have a singleton first. You're like, oh maybe this isn't so bad and then wham you get hit with like twins or triplets and like but the one thing that that looking back on that that I Realized that both trees and I realized we say this all the time is like how much we missed out on with the triplets versus just having Mackenzie, our singleton at once. And because when you had the triplets, there's times when they were small enough, I could get all three of them in my arms, but you'd have one, then you feel guilty, you didn't have the other two, and then you'd have two in your arms, and then you feel bad, you didn't have the third. So there is a lot of that. And I think that's what, looking back you missed out on some of those one-on-one moments. And just hearing me say this, my therapist reminds me of this all the time, you really need to try harder at getting more one-on-one time with your kids now, especially at the ages that they are because where they're at from a developmental standpoint, an influential ability standpoint, and she's absolutely right. But the other thing that, I was actually listening to a podcast called Planned English by Derek Thompson, and he's a first time father here, like three, four weeks ago. And he was having this conversation with somebody where most people think, take care of your kids first, then your spouse, and then yourself. And his point was, no, really invert that. Take care of yourself first, then take care of your spouse or partner, and then your kids will take care, you take care of your kids in a much better way. And that really resonated with me. And so I think about that today and taking care of myself from a health standpoint, working out as much as I do, but I still feel like I fall short from keeping very open lines of communication with Teresa and then my kids as well. A lot of times right now, I feel like a glorified taxi driver with my kids, but I get, that's valuable time, I'm with them in a car, but usually I only have one or two of them. And then again, I don't have the other two because they're not as active. They have other things they wanna be interested in or do that maybe don't align with the other ones. And I think that's where it's hard. There's even when you had two kids, you could be going in multiple directions. But when you add that third, I found in working with enough families, that's really where things change from a family dynamic standpoint. That's great insight. So going back to your story, you eventually do make the jump full-time and do your own thing. You'd separate the corporate America from your own pursuits and do the own pursuits full-time. What along the way would you characterize as setback or failure and what did it teach you before you launched out on your own full-time? That's a really good question. I think looking back over the last five years and I've been doing this a lot more, because I'm a big Dan Sullivan fan, and he's got this book called The Gap and the Gain. I highly recommend people take a look at that, because if you don't look back to where you started, you're looking out in the horizon, and the horizon's always in front of you. It's like never moving. And how do you measure progress? Well, you have to look back. And it sounds counterintuitive, but the more I've thought about it, the more I research it, the more correct I believe Dan is. And when I look back now, I'm like, why didn't I make that jump sooner? Like knowing what I know now, I mean, the whole hindsight 2020, but I had the confidence, I had the skill, but I couldn't necessarily overcome the fear. I had to hang on to the corporate job like Linus hangs on to his blanket. And it wasn't until Camille, going back to Camille Jane, my career mentor, really helped break me of that. And she just sat me down one day and said, it's time. It's time. You need to do this for yourself. You need to do this for your family. And so I don't know if there was ever – I'm sure I've had failures along the way. I think looking back at big picture, that's something that resonates with me a lot today and I think it'll continue to resonate with me, especially as my kids continue to grow and develop. And hopefully I'll get to share that life lesson with them at some point, if they're willing to listen to me. I know that's a really unique thing about what I do is I work with so many families that have kids that are 16, 17, 18 going off to college and I've been having conversations with these kids for the last couple years and that's part of why families bring me on board because they know that their kids will have a conversation or listen to me but obviously they won't listen to the parents because the parents are just dumb. I'm not sure who will fill that role. I'll have to find somebody when my kids get to be that age, but it's one that I've really enjoyed and embraced having these conversations with these soon-to-be young adults starting their journey into college. And then I call them my legacy kids because then after college, they end up coming on board as official Tama clients, which is great because it just solidifies this whole idea of family and what I do and what my firm is all about. Yeah, that's great. As you're talking, I'm really realizing, you're in success planning now or financial planning. How would you describe your role? I would say financial and emotional lifestyle planning. Because I think people want to separate their financial life from their personal life and you just can't. They are intertwined. And one of the big changes that I made with my firm probably about three years ago, and this is still a transition for me, is I think most people have this stereotype of what a financial advisor, planner, wealth planner, wealth advisor, there's lots of different names for us. Really does, and I think most people think, oh, that's just the person that manages my portfolio, picks stocks or bonds or ETFs for me. And that's the sexy thing because that's what's in mainstream media. Like how did the stock market do today? What's the economy doing? Those type of things. But for me, I start with the emotional side of the equation. So I've developed this one page plan if you will and on the left hand side of it is, starts with what is my purpose or purposes? And then from there, what are my objectives, and then from there, what are my action items? So think of your purpose as your why, that whole Simon Sinek book, and starting there, and then objectives or goals, if you wanna call them that, I try to focus in on those are SMART goals, specific, measurable, attainable, time-based, and relevant. How do those support your purpose and then identifying gaps and those identified gaps become your action items. So the example I give is, okay, you wanna help support your kids in college so they don't have as much debt as maybe you had. That's your purpose. Your objective would be, okay, did we set up a 529 plan? Did we figure out how much we need to contribute? Are we contributing? Did we tell family and friends that, hey, you know what? You can contribute to this as well. And then those become action items. You just, we just follow up on that. And so that whole side translates into this financial scorecard I've developed where this is what you wanna do from an emotional lifestyle standpoint, or are you actually doing it from a financial standpoint? Is your savings rate high enough? Are you saving in that 529 plan? And so that's where those two areas really connect. And so I think that shocks a lot of people that I initially talked to, they're like, the first meeting, I don't even talk about numbers. I talk more about the family and the people in it and what direction you really like to go in and how I may be able to help. And that's the thing is, the style, every advisor's a little different, especially ones that are solo like I am. So I'm a registered investment advisor. I live here in metro Detroit, but I practice nationwide. But for smaller shops, boutique shops, if you will, like myself, I'm not a great fit for everybody and everybody's not a great fit for me because the one thing I tell people right off the get-go is I want to be very involved in your guys' lives. So if something goes bump in the night, I'm the first person you think about. I'm the first phone call, if you will. And that's the relationship I try to build with my families is that I wanna be an extremely integral and critical part of your family, not only today, but into the future as well. Yeah. As you're describing your transition from corporate America into your full-time thing, and you've got a trusted advisor who's telling you it's time, or maybe even it's past time. It crosses my mind that a lot of times the reason we don't make those jumps is fear. We have this protective mechanism that's innate within us. Me as a provider for my family, I don't want them to do without. I don't want the mortgage to go unpaid. And the thought of pursuing my own thing is, as sexy as that might be, there's a reality of, OK, what happens if this, yeah, there's no ceiling, but there's also no floor. But you also find yourself as a lifestyle advisor or a financial planner, you're dealing with people who are concerned about fear. So you were brave and you were able to parlay that over into financial success and independence as an entrepreneur. What role does fear play in your life and maybe even in your planning for your clients? It plays a much bigger role than people, I think understand and this is like where cognitive therapy comes into play. And that's part of what I do as an advisor, full disclosure, I'm not a licensed therapist. I did not play one on podcast or TV or anywhere else, especially in my practice. But I think when I'm first having conversations with families, I try to pick up on cues to where we can unearth those fears because it's not like people come right out of the gate and say, I'm afraid of running out of money in retirement or I'm afraid that I'm not going to be able to help support my kids through college. But it's like asking why five times. I know that's one thing I learned in my corporate role, especially like in manufacturing plants. You get to the real root of the problem, and in this case what we're talking about is the fear. And so once we have that identified, then we can continue having conversations about it and figuring out, again, what is that purpose? That's always our North Star. How can we overcome that fear to be able to get to where you really want to go. And so that's why I think starting with the emotional side of financial planning is really key. For me personally, sometimes there's that phrase like feel the fear and do it anyways. And that's how I got almost six years ago where I finally made the decision to do this. And again, to what you just said, Toby, it wasn't an easy decision. I have four little kids to support. Now, fortunately for me, Teresa had a great job as well. But there's still that fear in the back of my mind that is this all gonna work out? Even five years later, almost six years later, with all the success that I've had, there's still a little bit of that maybe imposter syndrome, if you will. But it really comes through when somebody comes back and tells me, I don't know where I would be without you. And especially for some of my older clients have come through referrals like, oh my God, I can't thank you enough for what you did to help my mom after my dad passed away. Situations like that that are like, damn, I love what I do. The impact that I have on people is real. This is not just about numbers. It's not just about spreadsheets. These are people's lives that I'm a part of and helping to build and foster and grow and develop. For me, I'm really struggling with that. Fear is protective, but it also may make me stop short of what I'm really capable of. And so there's a real fine line. I read a quote today about how damaging it is for some people to hear, follow your heart. That may mean we rely on our emotion rather than our intellect or our rational side. And so part of me wants to believe that if you can see it, you can manifest it. Don't be afraid, run toward your fear. But then there's another side that's, yeah, but tap the brakes. Don't be hasty. There's certainly an uglier side to that notion of following your heart. Yeah, I would agree with that. I think, listening to you say that, like I go always back to that Steve Jobs, Stanford commencement speech about follow your passion, which I've never really agreed with, because you could follow your passion and do something that you don't either have the skill set for the confidence or most importantly to do something that no one's going to pay you for. So to me, you've got to have some infrastructure built to be able to do that. And for me, it took eight years almost to get to the point where I'm like, okay, now I can finally really jump off the deep end. It's not just about sticking my toe and then my leg and then half my body in the water. Now it's okay, full go, we're gonna jump in and go. And I have this conversation a lot with families I work with and friends that I don't work with about what do you think I should do about my job? Like I really do not like it, and that's okay. Again, it goes back to how can we start formulating a game plan, thinking about what it is that you really wanna do. And I think that is, let's tie that back to fear. I think that is one of the hardest things is for people to give themselves the great gift of time to think about what they really wanna do. And what I see often is people are afraid of what they're gonna find out. I think they're afraid that, okay, I've spent the last 15, 20 years doing this and I don't want to be doing this anymore and then what do I do? And so I think people become paralyzed by that fear and that's one reason why people have a hard time taking the first step with working with any financial planner, let alone me, is that they're really deathly afraid that they're gonna be told like nope, you're not gonna be able to do this or this isn't going to happen or that's not going to happen. And so that fear really prevents them from, from not only moving forward, but really figuring out what they want to do, going back to what their purpose is. Sure. As you're talking, I'm thinking back to my own journey as a podcaster and I've wanted to have a podcast for a very long time. time and it's one thing to, to want to be a Joe Rogan or for me, Lewis Howe's School of Greatness is certainly one that I've modeled after, but you can't get to episode 100 and unless you've at least published episode one and you know, that fear of perfection sometimes is a real enemy and so being willing to learn and to grow through that process has, has been really liberating for me. And so you're a podcaster as well. So, talk me through your decision to enter this space and maybe how that's played a role in what you do, whether it be as a dad, as a husband, or in your professional pursuits. If anybody's made it this long into the conversation, the one I'm gonna say next is probably not gonna surprise anybody. Being a financial advisor, you'd think my podcast, the emotional balance sheet, would be about financial planning or finances in general, and it's really not. What my show has turned out to be is stories about life transitions. Yeah, occasionally we'll mix in the hardcore about college planning or estate planning or retirement, but that's one of the reasons why I had you on my show. You've gone through significant life transitions, and I think people really resonate with other people's story. And that's what I wanna share. I wanna share other people's story on how they were able to evolve through, transition through their big life transitions. Because that could be something that says, oh, I see that now, I can do that. I can figure out how to take that next step. Because that's what a lot of my guests, like when you were on, you all give very actionable steps on what you can do next as far as life transitions goes. And so I got into podcasting because I was a podcast listener myself. And I wrote basically a weekly column for 10 plus years, never developed following, never had anything that went viral, and so I'm like, I'm gonna try something different. And I think I probably spent about six months researching, talking to people before I finally launched my show, and that was three years ago. It was October of 2020, and now we're over close to 120 episodes. And so I look back at that, and especially the first year, because you don't see a whole lot of growth. And then you're like, was this really worth it? And to me, one of the secrets of my show is I'm having these conversations as much for me as I'm having for the audience. There's burning questions that I want to find out about how to be a better partner, how to be a better parent, how to be a better business owner, how to be a better friend and listening to other people's stories has really helped solidify that. And again, I take all that and I can now see how my firm has grown and developed over the last three years with the growth and the conversations and the insights of the guests I've had on my show. And it's been phenomenal. I never had expectations that it would get to some stratospheric level. It was like, what can I do to provide value for the listeners, for my existing families that listen and for myself. And I think about it, would my friends listen to this? And if the answer is yes, then I've got something. Yeah. For me, I'm a qualitative researcher and I did my doctoral dissertation doing interviews that no one listened to but me. I've spent a lot of years growing as an interviewer that no one listened to. And so the thought of a podcast, yeah, the Enneagram aid in me, the super competitive side is I want to see those numbers. I want to see that trajectory upward. I want it to grow. But the reality is, if I'm really honest, I'm doing qualitative research. And if one or five or 100 people happen to listen, that's value added. And I think you're absolutely right. The challenge for me has been keeping the enthusiasm when the results haven't necessarily shown up. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. You might get one listener who might share it with 100 folks, or maybe someone that never does. I think it's definitely been a learning process for me in resilience. And like you said, it's as much about what I'm learning from high achievers as it is about what I'm sharing with the world. So I've really appreciated that and I appreciate what you do. Yeah, I think going back to the kids, because the kids know about the podcast, they've actually been on the podcast. They were my 50th episode because I just couldn't get Teresa. I could not twist Teresa's arm enough to get her on. Maybe, and I couldn't get her on for the 100th show either. Maybe the next big milestone one. But my kids will ask, did you have any podcast interviews this week? And if so, what were they about? So they have a vested interest. They have, they all have phones now, which is another, another challenge of parenthood, but they've got Apple iTunes or whatever on their phones. And I think a few of them have listened to a few episodes before. And so it's that enthusiasm, like you just mentioned, that helps get me going too, when your numbers maybe aren't what you would like them to be. But I think I just love having these conversations. Yeah. And in podcast years, three years is an eternity. And so congratulations on that. And I always say, I wish I would have started two years earlier, but I'm sure glad I started when I did. And so you can't undo what you didn't do, but you can be thankful for what you have done. Yeah, it's that whole theory, like when's the best time to plant a tree? Yesterday, when's the next best time to plant a tree? Today. I'm just full of analogies, because I love hockey, I'm a big hockey fan, so you miss 100% of the shots that you don't take. I think that was Gretzky. Yeah, or for the office fan, Michael Scott said that Wayne Gretzky said, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. I love music and the emotions that it can convey or represent. If we were watching a montage of your life, what song would you have playing in the background and why? Oh, that's a good one, Toby. I am a huge TELASO fan, Ted Lasso fan and so you could just about take anything off that soundtrack but I think in episode I don't know the exact episode but with season three and it's one like I play like constantly my kids know like when I'm having a bad day or I need to pick me up I just start playing that all that song all the time in the car the title of it is Martin Solveig and Dragonette, but yeah, it was on the Ted Lasso season 3 series. So that one, for whatever reason, that one's really resonating with me right now. Cool. I have a shared playlist that I've created from all my guests. I ask this question, so every guest gets their song dropped in. So it's like a way we can share our experience and inspire one another. How about you? What's your song? Nobody's ever asked me that. You flipped it around. This is what I get for having a podcaster on. It probably changes by the week. I tend to be a very emotional music listener. If I'm feeling super motivated, probably like some Public Enemy, Welcome to the Terror Dome, something like that. Oh yeah. If I'm feeling really reminiscent, maybe some Sara Bareilles, She Used to Be Mine from the Waitress soundtrack. It really just depends. You can tell a lot. I tell my wife this, if you glance at my Spotify and see what the algorithm is showing you, you can probably spot my dark periods and my bright periods. Your moods. So did you have, so when you were playing ball, when you were playing baseball, did you have, you were a pitcher, so you didn't have a walk-up song. No, my son's the baseball player. I was a basketball player and we didn't have that kind of technology back in my time. So we would run out as a team to usually a song that the seniors would pick. And so we thought that it was extra intimidating to play some public enemy or something like that. Yeah, that's a good one. What for you, Paul Finner remains undone? Oh man, I knew you were gonna ask this question too. I have been working on this project now for the last couple years and with myself, with my family, with Teresa, with my Tama families because I see it a lot and it's figuring out what is enough. I read a book by now a good friend of mine, Brian Portnoy, who wrote The Geometry of Wealth. Another gentleman, Morgan Housel, who wrote The Psychology of Money, which I would like to be his friend. So Morgan, if you listen to this podcast, let me know. Morgan's a prolific writer and so is Brian. But Brian, and that's the power of these podcasts, is I would have never met Brian Portnoy if I didn't have the podcast. So it's great. But this figuring out what enough is. So it goes back to what we were talking about before and knowing when those final moments are. You don't have to worry about missing any of those because you're already there and already present and you've already done enough. So I think for me, that's a project that, I don't know if there's ever an ending for it. Hopefully I get closer to where I know what enough is and I know where to pivot and transition my time and my emotions, if you will, to the people that are most important in my life. Awesome. Paul, Tama Capital, Emotional Balance Sheet podcast. How can listeners connect with you? The best way is to visit our website, which is tamacapital.com, and that's, again, T as in Teresa, A as in Aidan, M as in Madison, M as in McKenzie, and A as in Andrew. On the website, there'll be a link to the Emotional Balance Sheet podcast. I still do write about once a week, so there's lots of content there. We're on all the social channels, but our website is our big hub, so. Awesome. Paul, thanks for stopping in. Really appreciate your perspectives. Thank you so much. Thank you, Toby. I appreciate it. I am Paul Fenner with Tama Capital, and I am undone. For Paul and his wife, Teresa, parenting triplets plus one has been an adventure. And along the way, they've managed to build a highly successful business that allows them the flexibility to be fully present in their kids' lives. I'm thankful to Paul for dropping in today, for sharing his story, and for giving us a peek at the big picture of entrepreneurship and balancing it with family. If you haven't checked it out yet be sure to listen in to his show Emotional Balance Sheet wherever you get your podcasts. Just be sure to come back here and listen to mine. For more info on today's episode be sure to check it out on the web. Simply go to undonepodcast.com backslash EP65 to see the notes links and images related to today's guest, Paul Finner. I know there's some great stories out there to be told and I'm always on the lookout. So if you or someone you know has a story that we can all be inspired by, tell me about it. Surf on up or to undonepodcast.com, click that contact tab in the top menu, and drop me a note. Coming up, I've got a throwback episode with my daughter, Brynn Brooks, an informer Division I softball player turned orthopedic physician assistant Kelly Henderson Chapman. So stay tuned, this and more coming up on Becoming Undone. Becoming Undone is a NitroHype Creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. Follow the show on Facebook, Instagram, X, and LinkedIn at becoming undone pod and follow me at Toby J Brooks on X Instagram and tick-tock if you'd be so kind Would you pretty please subscribe and leave me a review at Apple podcast Spotify? I heart radio or wherever you get your podcast. That would be freaking awesome. I swear I've seen a lot of stuff in my life, but that was Until next time everybody keep getting better Awesome! Until next time everybody, keep getting better. you