In this episode of Becoming UnDone, Toby Brooks reflects on generational differences and stereotypes with his daughter, Brynnan Brooks. They discuss the characteristics and perceptions of their respective generations, Generation X and Generation Z. Toby shares his experience as a Gen Xer, feeling like the overlooked middle child and the resilience that comes from being part of the forgotten generation. Brynnan discusses the open-mindedness and inclusivity of her generation, as well as the challenges they face with mental health. They explore the pros and cons of each generation and the importance of intergenerational friendships and understanding.
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Becoming Undone is a NiTROHype Creative production. Written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. If you or someone you know has a story of resilience and victory to share for Becoming Undone, contact me at undonepodcast.com. Follow the show on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn at becomingundonepod and follow me at TobyJBrooks. Listen, subscribe, and leave us a review Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
In this episode of Becoming UnDone, Toby Brooks reflects on generational differences and stereotypes with his daughter, Brynnan Brooks. They discuss the characteristics and perceptions of their respective generations, Generation X and Generation Z. Toby shares his experience as a Gen Xer, feeling like the overlooked middle child and the resilience that comes from being part of the forgotten generation. Brynnan discusses the open-mindedness and inclusivity of her generation, as well as the challenges they face with mental health. They explore the pros and cons of each generation and the importance of intergenerational friendships and understanding.
Key Takeaways:
Quotes:
Becoming Undone is a NiTROHype Creative production. Written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. If you or someone you know has a story of resilience and victory to share for Becoming Undone, contact me at undonepodcast.com. Follow the show on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn at becomingundonepod and follow me at TobyJBrooks. Listen, subscribe, and leave us a review Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
the forgotten generation. So like working hard even if people might not recognize your efforts or working hard in the hopes that one day your efforts will be recognized. I think that's really beautiful but I think sometimes that can go too far where all your life becomes is working hard or it becomes only goal-oriented and not journey-oriented. But I think a lot of that work ethic comes from being the forgotten generation. Oh, maybe if I am successful on this thing, maybe if I do XYZ, people will notice, people will care. It is Word to the Third. My reflections on purpose, life and growth. I'm Toby Brooks. I'm a speaker, author, professor, and forever student. Each week on Becoming Undone, I bring you guests who've dared bravely, risked mightily, and grown relentlessly. High achievers who've transformed from falling apart to falling into place. But every third episode, it's my turn to reflect, refine, and reprocess on Word of the Third. Word of the Third! It is the new year! I'm excited to be back after a much-needed break, and the results are in. Yesterday marked the show's one year anniversary, and I came ever so close to hitting my goals of both 75 episodes and 5,000 downloads. I expect to hit both of those marks sometime in the next week or so, and I'm spending some time this week lining up more great guests for season two. Today's show is the final installment of a four-part series where I've rebooted and re-edited my first foray into podcasting. A pretty short-lived show called Better Every Week co-hosted with my daughter Brennan Brooks. You can find the first three episodes of that show here on Becoming Undone in episodes 36, 39, and 66. When Brennan was a freshman at the University of Oklahoma, we decided to try and launch a podcast. Many mistakes were made. Many lessons were learned. Just like my last guest, Mark DeGrasse, reminded me, just because things don't end up the way you planned, doesn't make them a failure. The show only made it four episodes, but it taught me some valuable lessons that have helped tremendously to this day. Those four episodes were cherished, and they were good, and I wanted them to live somewhere even after the show had been shut down. So I decided that I would slowly roll them back out to my new audience with a fresh edit and hopefully some fresh insights. The conversation was another good one too, and one I try to remember as I'm working with young people. In this installment, Brynn leads the way as we discuss things like generational differences, generational stereotypes, and the pros and cons commonly associated with my generation X and her generation Z. So dig in and enjoy episode 72, Generations, with Brynn and Brooks. I think we have a pretty interesting topic for today and I think that we're uniquely qualified to talk about it. You're pretty hip with the kids and I'm a pretty old soul but we're from very different generations because of when we were born and what the world was like when we grew up sometimes our outlook on things is pretty different and I think our generations are a good reason why sometimes our outlook is different. So today we want to discuss some of those differences. Our opening quote is, each new generation is reared by its predecessor. The latter must therefore improve in order to improve its successor. The movement is circular. I am Neil Durkheim. So what do you think about this quote? Do you agree? I spent a few years of my career being a grumpy old man and complaining about the young generation and one day it dawned on me that Behavior allowed is behavior encouraged and the only reason my students weren't living up to my expectations One of the main reasons was because I wasn't being clear with my expectations. So absolutely if we're gonna get better We're trying to make the next generation better. We can't take a posture of indifference, that's for sure. I agree. Let's see, do you think that you fit the like criteria of your generation? What would you say are like the stereotypes? Do you seem to fit them? Yeah, I think I absolutely do think so. Gen X has long been characterized as kind of the overlooked middle child. We were left to our own devices a lot. The notion of a latchkey kid came about for Gen Xers where baby boomers are widely recognized to be one of the most self-centered generations ever and they left us to... and I'm making sweeping generalizations here, but I know a lot of my friends and people a little bit older than I am, they were left to fend for themselves in a lot of ways. And that creates a resilience. It also creates some indifference. It creates a kind of a chip on our shoulder where we feel like we got the shaft. Like middle children oftentimes do. They feel like that older child, they have all the pictures and they have all the firsts for parents and the younger child, they're the baby, they get all the attention and the middle child kind of gets overlooked. And I think that's pretty safe to say for a lot of Gen Xers. They feel like even today you'll find lists of generations and they'll just forget about Gen X. Boomers have a place, Millennials do, but we're commonly overlooked. Do you think I fit the criteria of my generation? What are your perceptions of my generation stereotypes? And then I'll go into what I think are. Yeah. Gen Y and millennials are a little bit older than you. It's fairly typical for Gen Xers to pile on millennials. And so I feel like Gen Z gets a little less of our wrath. But my perception of Gen Z, I haven't had a lot of you in my classroom yet. You're on the younger end. I teach grad school. So far, I'm with the younger millennials. I've had elder millennials. I'd say a lot of ways you're typical, definitely more open-minded politically, definitely are quick to see racial and gender and sex discrimination, probably more so than earlier generations. But in a lot of ways, I feel like you are decidedly different. Your work ethic to me is in some ways second to none, not necessarily work-related, but when it comes to doing the work that it takes to be successful academically, you are all in. When it comes to practicing and honing your craft, I'd like to say you learned some of that from me, but I don't want to take credit for all that. Like you have a drive to do your very best. And I don't – it's probably unfair of me to say that all Gen Zers don't have that because a lot of times it just takes you a while to figure that out. If you have a natural propensity to do something, you don't have to work at it. It's just there. And so I feel like at your age and beyond as a college freshman, you're starting to discover, I can't just show up and expect to do great. Like I got to put in the work and it takes some of your contemporaries a little longer to figure that out than others. So that's my take on you as a Gen Zer. Oh, I definitely agree. I think I like the words open-mindedness. I think that's nice. I think sometimes that's perceived as questioning all authority, which sometimes it is, but I definitely think that I fit that stereotype of my generation. Just, we don't just want to know the what, we want to know the why, which I think is cool. It can get annoying because sometimes that conversation is a lot longer to know the why or you just want to say, do it this way. I think one big reason why I might not fit some of the other stereotypes of my generation is because it's because of my family. I've had a very stable home life. It's been very secure. And so I think that has contributed to, I know my generation has a lot of stereotypes of pretty bad mental health issues because one, they're more willing to talk about it, but also two, because I think my generation just struggles with it a lot. That's a really big thing because so many people that I know don't have that stable home life. So I'd say maybe it's a lot easier for me to have a hard work ethic because I'm not struggling with all the mental health problems that a lot of my peers do. Not that I don't struggle with any, but I I think just because of how I was raised, that's pretty unique for my generation. So for the olds like me, I didn't even know what anxiety or depression were when I was your age. Nobody talked about it. There was no social media. Hey, I'm suffering with this. And so if you had it, if you were struggling with it, you did it alone. I don't know of anyone in my high school who went to therapy ever. And that's a marked difference from what you'll see today. And I'm not bragging about that or saying it's good or bad. It's just the difference. And Comedian Not Long Ago, I think I shared it with you, where he said his daughter was asking him about his mental health and said, therapy? My dad didn't care if I was thirsty. Like it just wasn't a thing. You're expected to be resilient and tough and lift yourself up by your own bootstraps. And I think with that, your professors who are my age and older, we probably tend to be a little less caring and compassionate than your generation might want or like or expect. And that could create some conflict. But the flip side of that is, a lot of times we feel like a younger generation doesn't have the resiliency. You don't have the stick-to-it-ness to struggle through the tough times, because there's plenty of times when I don't necessarily feel like doing things, but there's strength and there's, to me, there's honor in figuring out a way to still be successful. That sounds like I'm discrediting mental health. I'm not. Certainly there comes a time when you need help. But I think for most of us, that notion of indifference and being left to our own devices made us a little jaded and a little skeptical. And so the only person we knew to trust was ourselves. Yeah. And I think that's a good segue that there's pros and cons to all the outlooks, all the generations. Maybe it's resilience, maybe it's pushing yourself too far, or maybe it's giving up, or maybe it's taking care of prioritizing your mental health. Who knows what? But I thought it would be fun to do pros and cons for each generation, but you would do my generation and I'll talk about yours with what we think are the pros and cons. So starting off, what you think are the... Yeah, I think one thing that you and your brother have helped me do is, and we've worked on this notion of privilege, flew all over me at one point in my life. up in a poor area, kids that were subjected to poverty and abuse. And I didn't, in my definition of privilege, I didn't necessarily see that. But because your generation is looking to right wrongs and looking to create community, regardless of whatever you would choose to describe yourself, you guys really forced me to take a hard look at my own biases. And so I think one pro certainly is that idea of inclusion, that idea of diversity and equity. That's an expectation for your generation. And it wasn't for mine. It was much more divided. And I don't feel like it was as ugly as times passed, but there was still tolerance. It's weird I use that word, but there was a tolerance of racism. There was almost, it's okay. It's just, you're just joking. It's just, you're just kidding around. And it's not. And I think that's definitely something that you and your brother and your friends have helped me to recognize. Those are some pros. What do you think are some cons of my generation that you're like, Oh, maybe. Don't worry. I'll do yours in a second. So part of the con is my generation's fault. I struggled to go to college. I didn't have an opportunity to go to a major four-year school or a private school. And so I knew that I wanted you and your brother to have different opportunities. I wanted to provide for you in ways. And I think part of that has made you a little hesitant to launch. You don't, you have friends. So this is really probably a little too specific, but you've got friends who have had to pay their own way. You have friends who've had to work and they've had to struggle and scrimp. And in some instances defer their plans because they couldn't afford to do what they were wanting to do. And so I think at least for you and your friends and Tay and his friends, I feel like because my generation has worked so hard to make things better for you than we had it, it's been too easy. It's come at no real cost to you and it needs to be yours. I don't want to constantly provide for you. I do, but in the process, if that makes you weak and it makes you unaware of the true cost of what it is you're doing, then I've almost done you a disservice. There's a lack of agency. You don't get to be excited about things and have like really high stakes. And is this going to be really great? Is this decision going to be great? Is this decision going to be terrible? Because someone else is helping you with it, which is great. But I see what you're saying. There's a quote that says, hard times create good men and good men create good times and good times create soft men. Soft men create hard times. And I see that generational cycle where in trying to right, even if they're just perceived wrongs of my generation and of my rearing and I think my parents did the same thing. They tried to give me a better experience than they had. In the process, I'm probably weaker in some ways than they were and in the process, you and your brother may be weaker in some ways than I was and certainly than they were. My dad had to pay rent to live in his own home when he was 12 years old. The thought of that's abuse in my mind. So I believe wholeheartedly in providing for you and helping you pave the way. But there's a part of me that almost resents my decisions because I want you to recognize it as you pursuing your dreams, not me paving the way for you to do whatever it is you want. That's interesting. Right. So my pros and cons of Gen X. I think the pros like you've been talking about is just the insane work ethic. I think you said that's something that my generation is maybe trying to figure out cause we're all in this age where we're starting to have really big responsibilities and have a lot of that freedom and like responsibility. So I think in general, that's a really good example that Gen X is set of working hard for not even for recognition just for in life because it's what you should do and because you want maybe because you want things but like you said they're the forgotten generation so like working hard even if people might not recognize your efforts or working hard in the hopes that one day your efforts will be recognized. I think that's really beautiful goal. I think that can also be a con. I think most pros can also be cons and vice versa. But I think sometimes, like we've talked about, that can go too far where all that your life becomes is working hard or it becomes only goal-oriented and not journey-oriented. But I think a lot of that work ethic comes from being the forgotten generation. Oh, maybe if I am successful in this thing, maybe if I do X, Y, Z, people will notice, or people will care. So I think, but I also think that's a pretty American ideal as well. Just the, I have to be successful at all costs. So maybe that's it too. Which brings me to another difference of, I'd say your generation is much more patriotic than my generation. My generation is distrust all the government systems and we grew up in dystopian novels. And so we might not necessarily want to embrace the whole American spirit of very independent and working hard, but I think your generation doesn't necessarily have an issue claiming that. We like, yeah, I'm proud and I can be independent and work hard. So I think that's an interesting difference. So what are what do you think is maybe like the biggest difference between the two of our generations? Yeah, I think politically there's some pretty deep divides, but that's true even within generation. You're going to find liberals and conservatives of all ages, all shapes and sizes and backgrounds. I think you're spot on in saying that the patriotism is probably, it's as low as I've ever seen it. When I was in middle school and growing up, we had Rocky movies where he goes to Russia and defeats the communists. And we had The Height of the Cold War. We were depicted in everything we read and were shown as the heroes. And the Soviets were depicted as these overbearing communist villains. We had nuclear fallout drills where we would cover our heads under our desks. It was just a different era where we were raised under this constant threat of global annihilation. So it wasn't all happy and sunshine, but whether you call it propaganda or whatever, I never walked away feeling anything other than the red, white, and blue was going to prevail and we were the good guys. And that's not, it's not true. If you look at our history, we conquered at the expense of other people. And that wasn't anything I was ever taught. And so I've really wrestled with my identity as an American. How can I be proud to be an American when I know realities like legal slavery and the trail of tears, and there's no shortage of horrifying things in our nation's history, and like you said, you grew up on Hunger Games and Maze Runner and all these dystopian realities. Everything's shades of gray and black, and I think there's a big distrust there, and I think that spills over. You're professors, you don't trust that, like they have to earn your trust. I was, I would never speak to a professor the way I've been spoken to. By college freshmen, there's an expectation that I'm the consumer here. I'm paying your salary and you do what I say. And my generation was, you're the professor. I do what you say and don't throw me out. And we're sandwiched between two generations who insist on their own way. And somewhere along the line, I realized, hey, wait a minute, we never got our turn. When did we get a chance to say this is our truth and we're gonna do this? Boomers, they were the largest generation in history. They were the most outspoken and freedom-seeking generation in history. I resent the fact, boomers got new schools. They had to, there were more of them than there'd ever been. So they built new schools. They got all the jobs and they stayed in those jobs for decades. Whereas my generation graduated from college and couldn't get jobs from people with high school diplomas who had 15 to 20 years of experience on it. So we're waiting in line. And then beyond that, then we kind of straddle this technology divide. I wasn't raised on the internet, but I know how to use it. And that makes me different than a boomer, but I don't have the technical savvy that a millennial or a Gen Z would have. And so I don't mean to sound like a grumpy old man, but there's definitely some things that I feel like we got passed over. And it's our own fault, really. We just didn't realize that we had a voice. Boomers insisted on their voice. Millennials and Gen Zers insist on their voice. They expect things and now everybody's got a camera. People are held accountable in a way that my generation never was. So people can't get away with stuff that they could 20 years ago. I just always kept my mouth shut. Sure, I saw injustice in a classroom. I saw things that shouldn't have happened go on in forts and in school and all these other places, but I respected authority because they were authority. I feel like your generation respects people once they've earned their respect. I don't care what your title is. You show me that you're someone worth my respect and then maybe I'll give it to you. No, I definitely agree. But I think my generation does it in a weird way. Like I was looking ahead at some of the questions and I was making me think millennials are the generation who they don't trust authority and they'll question them and they'll say that. I think my generation is non-confrontational like you said like both were sandwiched between generations who fight to get their own way whereas the boomers fight to get their way. Gen X is maybe I should get my way but they're teaching me that I can't so I guess I won't and I'll just forget about it. Millennials are like no we have to fight for this we have to stand up for it and then my generation is yeah you're right but I'm not gonna say anything I'm just gonna quietly disagree with you or passive-aggressive little very non-confrontational you get my coffee order wrong I'll just drink it wrong. I saw a Billie Eilish meme this week that's she's an artist who tries to convince young girls that they have enough anger that they can murder people while at the same time they're too scared to ask for an extra packet of ketchup. Yeah you know you gotta go so far to the extreme that maybe it'll like ease in out and maybe they'll go somewhere in the middle. So what do you think are some of the positive things, like some positive ways that your generation can teach things to other generations? What can the other generations learn from your Gen X spirit? I think you've already touched on a couple of them. I think work ethic. I think there's a happy balance between working hard and being successful and being so driven that it comes at the expense of your family. So this whole work-life balance thing, that was never a thing. My dad, he worked three months straight without a day off. He got overtime. I didn't see him. He worked nights and I obviously went to school during the day. So when he was home and I was awake, he was asleep. And when he was home and he was awake, I was asleep. So we actually didn't actually talk for greater than three months, the longest span there. But he grew up in, like I said, he had to pay rent for his own room when he was 12 years old. Like he wanted to pay off the house. He wanted to give us financial security. And so he so pursued financial success and thought I'll get around to that family stuff when there's time. Somewhere between that extreme and then a deadbeat who doesn't work ever and just stays home all the time and chooses, pretty strong word choice there, no disrespect to stay at home moms or dads, but people who choose not to fulfill their responsibilities, they're somewhere in between those two extremes. There's a happy medium. I think work ethic is one. Pains me to know that people aren't proud to be Americans. Again, I've wrestled with that. If you dream it too loud, then you're accused of being racist or you're a bigot or you're clearly aligned with conservatives and the Republican party. That's not my intent. I know when I was five years old watching the Olympics, all I cared about was, Hey, that guy or that gal is on my team and they're wearing my colors. And it's funny. I bought from people listening. I bought a box of American flags for the Olympics. And I can remember you cringing a little, like people are going to see us buy this and assume our red MAGA hats are next. I just wanted to celebrate the Olympics in America. And that's like the only time I can get you to acknowledge like USA and that's foreign to me and most of my contemporaries. What about you? I think the open-mindedness and inclusivity is an interesting thing too that other people can probably learn from my generation. I think that one's tricky though because we're the younger generation so being like oh I'm gonna go have this intergenerational friendship and I'll make friends with the boomer and then they'll learn how to be open-minded for me that's not usually how it goes. It's usually the older person is going to teach the younger person how to be. So sometimes maybe that learning is best done. Anything people learn from my generation is usually best done just like through osmosis rather than, oh I'm going to teach them this lesson because people don't, which I don't either. I don't take kindly to if some 12 year old comes up to me and says, you need to do this better. I'm like, don't talk to me kid, whatever, you don't know what you're talking about. But I think because as we've talked about so many pros and cons today of even things that are both pros and cons in different amounts, I think it's just so essential for us to figure out how to have those intergenerational friendships so we can, or relationships where we just, we know people who have very different life experiences than us and we're all like willing and open and excited to learn things from other generations and how they might be. Yeah, do you have any examples from your own life? I think about academics and how vague and arbitrary a lot of our assignments were as students. Like I can remember being an undergrad and being told, write a 10-page paper on X topic. That was the extent of the assignment. No grading criteria. I never even heard of a rubric until I was in grad school. It was basically just write a paper that the professor agrees with, format it appropriately based on what you find is appropriate. Like it was, hey, this needs to be APA style. I'm not going to tell you what that is. You're a college student. You go figure out what APA style is and I'm going to grade you accordingly. That does not fly. Like in order for me to write an assignment, it's got to be crystal clear to the point that I not only tell you what I expect and the way that I'm going to evaluate you, I even now provide rationale as to why this is an assignment. Because otherwise I get the criticisms that Brooks just gives us a bunch of busy work. And there's also, there's certainly a diversity component here too, because my professor viewed everything we produce through their own lens, the wide experience or what's expected, what's considered appropriate grammar, what is considered professional. There's a pretty hotly debated, some professional programs were saying that things like locks were not professional, that you had to have short hair and shaved beards and girls had dress codes. There's so many racial overtones and overt racism as well as maybe some less obvious racism because what we're doing when we make those kinds of demands and expectations is my culture determines what's professional and you have to follow suit. So I think I've had to get far more specific as an instructor over the years with what I expect in an assignment, give you room to stretch your own legs from your own experience, and even tell you why I think it's important. Because if you don't, and it's not just you, if my millennial students and my Gen Z students don't fully understand why there's an assignment, they give me a half-hearted effort a lot of times. Like you've got to believe that this is important in order for me to get your best. And so what can I do? I can either keep complaining about it and sound like a grumpy old man and continue to get substandard work, in my opinion, or I can try to meet you where you are and be as explicit and as complete in my description of the assignment as possible. Now, my rubrics are three pages long and nobody reads them because they're too long. Some work in between those two is where they probably need to live. That's so interesting. I've never thought of it that way, but I so do that. If a professor is giving me an assignment and I'm like why are we doing this I don't understand I'll get it done and I'll turn it in on time but it's not gonna be my best work because I'm like no this is stupid I oh my gosh I'm like having a crisis right now I like just did that the other day and I was like I don't understand why we're doing this project and I I turned it in and got it done but that's crazy. Which I think is important to some degree because if you're like, okay, I can clearly see how this assignment is helping me for my future. I'm going to put all my effort into it. So you're rationing out your efforts so that you remain a fully functioning, happy human. I think that's good, but maybe we just need to push through and give our best effort no matter what. Yeah, there's actually a movement in higher ed, it's called TILT. It's Transparency in Learning and Teaching. It's something I've learned about just in the past year. It's part of my work with the Institute for Inclusive Excellence. What I've learned is, as much as that might be a barrier for you, if the professor in your classroom looks like you and has a similar background to you, it's even more profound when there's a difference. If my students of color are looking at it through a different lens than maybe I do, and I don't give them that transparency, then it just creates a greater likelihood of miscommunication on my part. And so nothing I hate more than a professor who's vague with the assignment and then takes points off of me because I didn't meet a standard that existed only in their mind. And so be explicit, tell the story, and hopefully at that point, your students will give you a better effort. That's interesting. That's crazy. I think we've talked about a lot of good and bad things about all of our generations. So I am saying to just go have a conversation with someone who's in a different generation than you. Maybe if you're turning this into a real assignment, if we're being clear and explicit, write down three things you learned and then you can reflect and be like, okay, here's what I can learn from other generations. Because I think that's really important just to go have conversations with people who are different than you in general, but for this talk specifically, people who are different than you in terms of age and generation. So. Yeah, I agree. I think our church does a great job of connecting people of different life stages. And it also helps tear down some of those stereotypes for me. It'd be real easy for us, all of us. It's just the nature of social media and algorithms for us to focus on our differences and view anyone who's not of our generation as being this negative thing. And where we tear that down is I can't simultaneously think that all boomers are self-centered egomaniacs when I've got great relationships with a half dozen people who are boomers who are none of those things. And so stereotypes die in the face of evidence. And that's something that I've learned is if I just stay in my little bubble of like-minded bubble. It's easy and frankly lazy to decry the shortcomings in a younger generation's work ethic or effort without recognizing that much of that is dependent upon how well I have explained things. That's exactly what this conversation has reminded me to do. My take-home for today is that it's unfair of me to hold my students to a standard if I haven't first clearly articulated exactly what I expect first. As Brene Brown often says, clarity is kindness. What about you? What are you working on or waiting for and what are you doing in the meantime to get better every day? I'd love to hear about it. Surf on over to undonepodcast.com and drop me a note. For more info on today's episode be sure to check it out on the web. Simply go to undonepodcast.com backslash EP 72 to see the notes, links, and images related to today's guest, Brendan Brooks. Coming up, I've got a number of guests lined up for season two, along with some exciting changes that I think you'll love. So stay tuned. This and more coming up on Becoming Undone. Becoming Undone is a NitroHype Creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. I'm always on the lookout for inspiring stories. So if you or someone you know has one to share, please contact me at undonepodcast.com. Follow the show at Becoming Undone Pod and me at Toby J Brooks on Facebook, Instagram, X, LinkedIn, and TikTok. Subscribe and leave me a review on our podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts. I would sincerely appreciate it. I'm Toby Brooks, and this has been Word to the Third. Word to the Third! Till next time, everybody. Bye! You