[TRANSCRIPT]
0:00:00 - (Patrick Holcomb): It was hard. I still look back on that time, and in a way, I'm still processing some of these feelings, because I did spend years chasing this overarching goal. But Denali, there were a lot of warning signs for quite a while beforehand that my body was just not going to be able to do this forever. But I kept pushing it because it mattered to me. But even then, as I came back down to the camp at 17, the highest campus there, I knew that I probably wasn't coming back. And we had been on that mountain for 23 days at that point, which is a serious commitment, and I just didn't know if I had it in me anymore.
0:00:38 - (Patrick Holcomb): And yeah, you talk about the death of a dream. That was it right there. I really had some feelings to confront and process. The feelings were different at different times. Sometimes I was relieved. Sometimes I was disappointed. But sometimes there was relief, too, because I knew that I wasn't going to have to continue putting my body through the things that I had been putting my body through. And that had taken a toll over time.
0:01:03 - (Patrick Holcomb): Really had. My name is Patrick Holcomb, and I am undone.
0:01:26 - (Toby Brooks): Hey, friend, I'm glad you're here.
0:01:27 - (C): Welcome to another episode of Becoming Undone.
0:01:29 - (Toby Brooks): The podcast for those who dare bravely, risk mightily, and grow relentlessly. I'm Toby Brooks, a speaker, an author, and a professor. I spent much of the last two decades working as an athletic trainer and a strength coach in the professional, collegiate, and high school sports settings, and over the years, I've grown more and more fascinated with what sets high achievers apart and how failures they can hurt in the moment can end up being exactly the push we needed to propel us along our path to success.
0:01:55 - (Toby Brooks): Each week on becoming undone, I invite a new guest to examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. I'd like to emphasize that this show is entirely separate from my role as a professor, but it's my attempt to apply what I've learned, and what I'm learning, and to share with others about the mindsets of high achievers. This is your first episode. Welcome. I sincerely hope that you love it.
0:02:18 - (C): I'm closing in on a year and.
0:02:19 - (Toby Brooks): A half on this podcasting journey, and it's been a heck of a ride, filled with tons of lessons. I've had the pleasure of interviewing some incredible guests, so if you like this one, be sure to scroll back through the archives and pick out some previous episodes of other high achievers who didn't let failure or setback stand in the way of their eventual victories. For Corona, California, native Patrick Holcomb, an early love for all things baseball meant hours playing the game, collecting cards, memorizing stats, and watching games with his dad.
0:02:51 - (Toby Brooks): Later, a love for reading would sprout the works of John Grisham. Being nearest to his heart, Leslie seemed to move to the wayside for a.
0:02:59 - (C): Time as he embarked on a career.
0:03:00 - (Toby Brooks): In the US Marine Corps, where he eventually began to pursue the ambitious goal of completing a marathon and climbing the highest mountain in each of the world's seven continents. He got close, but setback and adversity eventually showed their face as Patrick confronted the hard truth that that dream would not be achieved. Looking to pick up the pieces from that goal, baseball and literature returned to his life as he started working on his book, eventually completing and launching where the seams meet earlier this year.
0:03:32 - (Toby Brooks): As luck would have it, I got two copies in the mail today that I bought that my son and I are going to read this summer as he starts to finish his baseball career and we move into the next season of our relationship together. In this first of a two episode series devoted to military heroes turned authors hear Patrick tell his story of what he was able to do when massive dreams fall short and new purpose emerges in episode 81, the Journey with Patrick Olcomb.
0:04:03 - (C): Y'all super excited about this one. It was probably around Christmas when Patrick Holcomb and I first connected. Patrick, welcome to the show.
0:04:12 - (Patrick Holcomb): Thank you, Toby. Happy to be here.
0:04:14 - (C): You've got a fantastic story, and it definitely aligns with the vision for what this show is all about. You had audacious dreams and pursued those, chase those down in a way few humans in history ever have. And that fell short, and suddenly it turned into a big change. I'm looking forward to digging into your story and gleaning some truths and some wisdom you learned along the way. But I always start at the beginning.
0:04:44 - (C): What do you want to be growing up and why?
0:04:47 - (Patrick Holcomb): That's an interesting question. So when I was a kid, I was all about sports, and I think that is probably true for a lot of your guests and a lot of people in your life. Played basketball and baseball growing up. I wrestled for a couple years and I spent a good bit of time outdoors. I was always a kid who was playing outside. I don't know that I ever thought I would grow up to be a baseball player.
0:05:06 - (Patrick Holcomb): I think even as a kid there was a streak of realism there, and I realized I just wasn't good enough. But it didn't stop me from loving the game, and I can't even imagine how many hours I spent just sitting on the floor of my room looking at baseball cards, memorizing stats, trading them with friends, watching the games on tv, listening on the radio with my dad. So my life was all about sports, but I like to crack a book, too.
0:05:29 - (Patrick Holcomb): And as I started getting in middle school, I started reading John Grisham. And I think at that point, I started thinking to myself, maybe there's a career for me as a lawyer someday. I had a lot of people tell me that I was able to talk fairly well and make a good argument here and there. So I started to envision that as my future at one point. And then life took me in a totally different direction. And frankly, I'm glad it did.
0:05:52 - (C): Yeah, we'll definitely dig into some details, but I certainly can connect. I grew up in the middle of nowhere, and I didn't have a neighborhood to play with. I grew up on a farm. We had this big barn with a sloped roof, and I would throw a tennis ball up and it'd roll down and I'd catch it, basically. Playing catch with yourself. So those early dreams of baseball we certainly share in common. So from there, you ended up in the Marine Corps and retired in October 2021. So talk me through how you go from those early dreams of baseball stardom or maybe even success as a high powered lawyer to a career in the service.
0:06:29 - (Patrick Holcomb): Yeah, it was an interesting ride. It really was. I never envisioned myself joining the service. It was never something that I really thought about. But as I was getting to the end of high school, I started looking at the landscape and saying, what is it that I want to do? And my grades weren't fantastic, so a four year university was out of my reach. There was the community or junior college route, sure. But I think a part of me knew that I wasn't really ready for that.
0:06:54 - (Patrick Holcomb): And it sounds weird to hear a rebellious kid say, maybe I needed a little discipline, but I think I might have. And I was approached by a recruiter. And then somewhere down the road, I decided to give that recruiter a call. And we had a great conversation. And soon I was signing on the dotted line, and my parents were signing right along with me, saying, yeah, go for it.
0:07:16 - (C): Yeah, for sure. So an exciting pivot. Where. Where was home for you? Where did you grow up prior to starting your career in the Marine Corps?
0:07:24 - (Patrick Holcomb): So I was born in the Bay Area in Concord, and we moved around quite a bit. When I was a kid, my dad worked for AAA insurance company, and every time he would get promoted. That would be a move for the family. So we moved around a bunch when I was young, and then we found our way to Santa Rosa, about an hour north of San Francisco. And that was home for a long time and still feels like home today. So I went to Piner High School, graduated in 2001, and then a month later, I was on a plane and then on a bus and then on some yellow footsteps steps at MCRD San Diego.
0:07:55 - (C): Well, it sounds like you were accustomed to that military life, even though your dad wasn't in the military, with the copious amounts of moves. So probably the meat of your story comes from this unique pursuit, the seven and seven, you refer to it as. And that started while you were in the Marine Corps, am I correct?
0:08:17 - (Patrick Holcomb): It did. It did, yeah.
0:08:19 - (C): Where did the genesis for this idea come from and how did you get started? Talk us through what the seven and seven is and how you got started on that pursuit.
0:08:26 - (Patrick Holcomb): Okay, so let me tackle that first. What is the seven and seven? The seven and seven was my idea to run a marathonte and climb the highest mountain on every continent, including Antarctica. So this started back in 2011 when I was deployed to Afghanistan. And it was a long deployment and I was working hard. The hours were just unimaginable and frankly, I was tired. And when you're deployed, you have a lot of time to examine your life, examine yourself, and think about what it is that you really want.
0:09:02 - (Patrick Holcomb): So I did that. I did a lot of that. And as I was nearing the end of that deployment, one of my buddies said, hey, you should do something fun when we get back. And I heard him out and his idea was, we're going to fly to Africa and we're going to climb Kilimanjaro. And I didn't know much about Kilimanjaro, but I said, jeff, let's go do it. And that's sort of where the story began.
0:09:25 - (Toby Brooks): I'm not sure you caught that.
0:09:26 - (C): So let's recap.
0:09:28 - (Toby Brooks): Patrick is a few years into a successful military career as a member of the US Marine Corps. One day, on a whim, a friend by the name of Jeff suggested they climb Kilimanjaro, which at 19,340ft, is the highest point on the continent of african. Now, a good interviewer would have asked for clarification on Jeffs last name, as he essentially is the genesis for what will become the consuming drive of the next several years of Patrick's life.
0:09:57 - (Toby Brooks): But alas, it's just Jeff. At any rate, this kicks off a quest to become one of the first people in history to accomplish the feat of summiting the highest peak and completing a marathon on each of the world's seven continents. I was able to discover info on the seven and seven challenge, where runners complete a marathon on a different continent each day for a grueling week. This wasnt that, though.
0:10:24 - (Toby Brooks): I was also able to find info on the seven Summits challenge, in which participants ascend the highest peaks on each of the seven continents over time, almost in a punch card style, at their own pace. This also wasnt that. It was something different, so different, in fact, that I wasn't able to find info on any other person who had attempted to do what Patrick had decided to do, making his goal so outrageously ambitious and exclusive that the Internet doesn't even have a page describing those who had done it before.
0:10:58 - (Toby Brooks): I did manage to find an interview of Patrick Online that said he would possibly be the third person in human history to complete defeat. But it's a goal so out there, so at the fringes of human physical capacity, not to mention the staggering logistics of it all, that it seemed all but impossible. But the threat of impossible never intimidated Patrick Holcomb, as he's been known to say. He admires each mountain, whether figurative or literal, with the same question, can I climb that?
0:11:30 - (Toby Brooks): And climb and run? He did for a long time, until one day he faced a summit he couldn't reach.
0:11:39 - (C): So all continents, including Antarctica. You mentioned in your email to me that you run a marathon on Antarctica. I can't imagine there are a lot of folks that have done that. And so climbing a mountain is one thing. Physiologically, it's a challenge for our skeletal, our neuromuscular system, our cardiovascular system. Running a marathon is a much different challenge. I'm curious to know maybe which of the two you found to be the biggest challenge and why.
0:12:10 - (Patrick Holcomb): It's tough. Honestly, I would say the mountains are harder because as you get into these taller, bigger mountains, it takes more and more time, and you're up there for weeks at a time. And that altitude, those harsh conditions, they start to take a toll. They really do. And with the lack of oxygen, you are not the same person or athlete that you are at sea level, and different people respond to it different ways to altitude sickness is a thing, and it can hit anyone at any time, regardless of your fitness.
0:12:44 - (Patrick Holcomb): And when it hits, there's not much you can do about it. And it hurts.
0:12:47 - (C): Yeah. And the marathon suck, as it might. It's a confined space of suck where you just, you gut it out and do it a day and then you're done, right?
0:12:56 - (Patrick Holcomb): Yes and no. Race day is one day. Absolutely. And I always used to feel such an incredible sense of relief, release as I stood there at the starting line just waiting to begin, because I knew that the hard work was behind me. And the hard work is the training, and that is months and countless hours of training that goes into running a fast marathon. And when I say fast, I'm not Olympic qualifying fast by any means, but for an average human being, I'm pretty fast.
0:13:23 - (Patrick Holcomb): Yeah.
0:13:24 - (C): You had also mentioned in the run up to the show that you were able to successfully complete all seven marathons on different continents, and you were pursuing the mountains. And at some point, this wild and crazy dream started to look like a reality. I'm curious, though, the time commitment, the finances that it would take in order to be able to do this. Talk me through what that pursuit of this dream meant for you as a person working in a job.
0:13:55 - (Patrick Holcomb): Yeah. So it's an idea that grew over time. I started with Kilimanjaro, and then that same year, I had a goal, running my first marathon. And I had tried training a couple different times and had injuries, and I wasn't able to make it happen. But then in 2012, right before my 30th birthday, I got that first one under my belt, and I was like, man, this is amazing. I felt good about it. I ran, like, at 336.
0:14:19 - (Patrick Holcomb): And at that point, I was, I think sub three is probably within reach someday. So I set a sort of goal to start training for that. But after that first marathon, the next one that I did was in Beijing. It was on the Great Wall, so outside of Beijing, but on the Great Wall of China. And as I did that trip, I met other people who were pursuing this goal of running a marathon on every continent, and that kind of inspired me.
0:14:44 - (Patrick Holcomb): So the way that I was able to keep doing the marathons in the mountains was that in my job as a marine stationed in Japan at the time, there were a lot of targets of opportunity, and so I took them. I went down to Australia on a number of occasions for work, and I ran the Sydney marathon while I was there. And I climbed the highest mountain in Australia, which, honestly, isn't all that high, but I was able to do that as part of my job with just a few days of leave taken.
0:15:10 - (Patrick Holcomb): So part of the way that I was able to do this was by leveraging my job, which was fantastic in that regard.
0:15:16 - (C): Yeah, no doubt. As you're talking, I'm thinking about how things like the Internet and social media allow us to connect with like minded folks that are few and far between in our normal day to day circles. It's not like you're gonna run to the grocery store and bump into somebody else that's, that's seeking this goal. But what kind of support or network did you build over time? You kind of alluded to that on the marathon side, but what did that mean for you in this pursuit? Did you feel like that was a really critical part to your continued pursuit of this dream?
0:15:51 - (Patrick Holcomb): I felt like it was. You form these friendships that are just amazing with people that you can look up to. You look at their achievements. Wow. I want to be on that level. And, yeah, it definitely inspires you to continue reaching, continue pushing. They're also able to coach you when you're down, too, because they've been through the same things. And that support network is important because it doesn't always go the way that you want it to. You don't always find your way to the summit. You don't always run the time that you're trying to. Sometimes you get hurt and you don't make it to the start of the race at all.
0:16:26 - (Toby Brooks): Now, Patrick is talking about mountains and marathons here for sure, but I think.
0:16:31 - (C): It'S abundantly clear that he's also not.
0:16:33 - (Toby Brooks): Talking about mountains and marathons here, too. He says you don't always find your way to the summit. His goal was to reach the literal ceilings of the world in climbing. Mount Everest in Asia, Mount Kilimanjaro in Africa, Denali in North America, Ikongwa in South America, Vincent Massif in Antarctica, Mount Elbrus in Europe, and Mount Kosciusku in Australia. He'd already completed all the marathons and had broken the three hour barrier in it, an impressive feat for any runner.
0:17:05 - (Toby Brooks): He'd also completed three of those summits, and his goal for a fourth was in sight. But little did he know that this audacious goal was about to reach a perilous and painful end that would not just threaten his physical health, but over time, his mental as well.
0:17:21 - (Patrick Holcomb): And when those things happen, it's important to have people that you can lean on.
0:17:25 - (C): So you're in pursuit of this goal and checking off the boxes. There's basically a, I don't know if there's a hand scratch list of seven marathons you want to run and seven peaks you have to summit, but you're on Denali and you're in the process of checking this box, and then it doesn't go according to plan. So talk me through what that experience was like and mentally, the gymnastics you went through and the realization that this.
0:17:53 - (Toby Brooks): One'S not going to happen.
0:17:55 - (Patrick Holcomb): It was hard. I still look back on that time, and in a way, I'm still processing some of these feelings because I did spend years chasing this overarching goal. But Denali, we did that in May of 2021. And there were a lot of warning signs for quite a while beforehand that my body was just not going to be able to do this forever. I had shoulder surgery the November before that. I already knew that there were problems with my hip.
0:18:25 - (Patrick Holcomb): My back was so bad that there were days where I had to roll out of bed and crawl across the room to turn off my alarm. But I kept pushing it because it mattered to me. So I was able to get myself together to go and do Denali, and I wasn't entirely comfortable. I felt like I was able to accomplish the task, and I got very close. And there were some things on summit day that happened that were outside of my control, and that's ultimately what prevented me from getting to the summit.
0:18:58 - (Patrick Holcomb): But even then, as I came back down to the camp at 17, the highest camp there, I knew that I probably wasn't coming back because I had a hip surgery in front of me, and we'd been on that mountain for 23 days at that point, which is a serious commitment, and I just didn't know if I had it in me anymore. And, yeah, you talk about the death of a dream. That was it right there. I really had some. Some feelings to confront and process, and it took some time.
0:19:28 - (Patrick Holcomb): It really did.
0:19:29 - (C): One of the concepts in one of the classes I recently took is that of sunk cost, and I wasn't familiar with it, and sunk costs would say that you don't throw good money after bad. If you recognize that something you're trying to build in a business is not going to be successful, you don't continue to pursue it. You pivot right away and you run away from it. And as I'm approaching that, I'm like, that's not how I'm wired as a human being.
0:19:58 - (C): I can't look at this just quantitatively. And I'm assuming, based on your reaction, that you didn't just calculate the cost and think, this is it. I'm out of this. You recognize that you had invested a significant portion of your life, finances, your identity is wrapped up in this pursuit. You wanted to become the third person maybe in history that's ever done this. So in those days, those weeks, those months that followed talk me through the thought process of what giving up on this dream meant for you as a human.
0:20:37 - (Patrick Holcomb): You hit on some really key points there. It was about time and money that I had sunk into it, yes, but perhaps more so about my identity and who I had become. These goals had been formative in ways that I probably didn't think they would be going in or even realize at the time, but they had very much shaped me, and it was difficult to even imagine walking away from something that I had spent so much time working toward and dreaming about.
0:21:08 - (Patrick Holcomb): And, yeah, there was something of a grieving process that I had to go through, and it was at a time where I was going through massive transitions, because at this point, I'm coming up on my muricor retirement and walking away from a career that I had invested 20 plus years in. So there were a lot of different things happening for me at the same time. And, yeah, it was tough to process that change. But I think what helped me was that while I knew that one dream had died, I also recognized an opportunity.
0:21:42 - (Patrick Holcomb): I had already planned to take time off after I left the Marine Corps to go and finished the climbing endeavors. And I knew that rarely do you get the opportunity to just take a huge chunk of time and pursue a passion project and do something meaningful. So that's when I really started thinking about this book that I had been conceptualizing for a few years already, but didn't really yet have the courage to commit to writing.
0:22:07 - (C): Yeah, before we get there, we'll definitely dig into the book. I want to go back and maybe even drill down on that moment. And you said you're on the mountain for 23 days, and at some point, ultimately, that go no go decision gets made. And I've had guests on this show that talk about these big transitions in their life. Olympic athletes who knew in an instant their career was over, or entrepreneurs who recognize that the business they've worked their whole life to build is suddenly gone.
0:22:38 - (C): And they had a shut the light off in the office for one last time moment, or looking back on something and thinking what might have been. Was there a specific moment like that for you on Denali? Or were you more in the midst of your pain and your suffering and in the kind of the tyranny of the now? As we talk about.
0:23:02 - (Patrick Holcomb): The moment that I decided to turn around on summit day, I knew, and I had time to think about it. When I got back to the tent and I'd cleaned myself up and had a little bit of time to catch my breath, both literally and in a figurative sense. Yeah, I knew. And it was something that I really, though, had to take time to process, and the feelings were different at different times. Sometimes I was relieved.
0:23:31 - (Patrick Holcomb): Sometimes I was disappointed. It was more so disappointment than anything else, but sometimes there was relief, too, because I knew that I wasn't going to have to continue putting my body through the things that I had been putting my body through. And that had taken a toll over time. Really had, yeah.
0:23:48 - (C): And I think that's. We're really talking about the mental toll that this took. But ultimately, this was a physical decision. It wasn't like, I'm not feeling like I can climb the summit. You're not physically able, so what specifically were you dealing with physically? And now you've got to get back down the mountain in the midst of this pain and suffering.
0:24:07 - (Patrick Holcomb): Yeah. So here's the reason that I turned around. A couple different reasons. When we began summit day, there was a very long line of people because there had been bad weather for the two or three days before that, so people were piled up waiting for their shot. My rope team started at the very back of that line. So there's a section, initially called the audubon, where you're transitioning across a mountain and you're in the shade. The sun is not up yet. It is very cold, and it was supposed to take about 90 minutes because of this backlog of people.
0:24:40 - (Patrick Holcomb): It took twice that, and I started getting very cold. And by the time we finished that and I was able to take a short break, I realized when I took off my gloves briefly that I had the beginnings of frostbite on fingers on both hands, and I was just extremely cold, and I was having trouble warming up. And while other members of my overall group had a chance to rest, to get some food in them, to just sit and absorb some of that sun up there, we had to move very quickly. So my rope team got about five minutes and not enough time to really recuperate and get ready for the next stage.
0:25:14 - (Patrick Holcomb): So I went on for two more legs after that. But I couldn't get the hands warm, and then the core started getting cold, too, and I just couldn't keep and stay warm, and I began to worry. And the worry was about myself. Yes, but when you're in that circumstance, you can't just think about yourself. You have to think about the team, because once you begin to suffer, you become a liability. And it's not just you.
0:25:40 - (Patrick Holcomb): Everybody on that rope with you is connected, not just by the rope, but. But your circumstances are connected. And your fortunes are connected.
0:25:51 - (Toby Brooks): So much to unpack here. But in hearing Patrick recount the closing moments of his ambitious dream, as he can both see and feel it, dying is powerful to me. In a cruel twist of irony, it is numbness, first in his hands and then in his body, that would begin to trigger a season of both mental and physical pain and anguish when Patrick's dreams begin to fall apart. But what he realized in that moment was worth examining.
0:26:23 - (Toby Brooks): There's a lesson here to be learned. He knew in his heart that to continue on wouldn't just put himself in danger. It would also put his team in jeopardy, too. When we find ourselves in situations where, as Patrick put it, we begin to suffer, we can become a liability. So whether that means we find a way over, around, through, out, or, in Patrick's case, on Denali, back down our mountain, the decision to do so isn't just about us.
0:26:52 - (Toby Brooks): It's about others, too.
0:26:54 - (Patrick Holcomb): And it takes one small mistake to put everybody into danger. So I made what I thought then and what I believe now to be the right decision, and I turned around. And then it was just the process of getting down the mountain, which was still difficult. But even in the moment, I knew it was the right call.
0:27:12 - (Toby Brooks): Right.
0:27:13 - (C): So the title of this show, you're undone. You're probably at different phases or in different moments, coming apart. You feel like, I gave it my best effort and I fell short. But then what's behind starts to dim, and what's in front begins to grow ever clearer. So talk me through how this dream of this kid that read John Grisham at one point decides he's going to invest and become an author.
0:27:44 - (Patrick Holcomb): A part of me had always envisioned a day where I would write a book. I think I talked about it for the first time when I was a kid, and then I quieted that voice for a very long time, and I didn't really mention it to anybody. I never wrote fiction. The first bit of fiction that I ever wrote was the prologue for the book itself. First time. I'd done a great deal of writing professionally up to that point, but I'd never written fiction before.
0:28:11 - (Patrick Holcomb): But for me, it started with an idea. And that idea was formed back in October of 2014. Bay Area Guy, I'm a Giants fan, and the 2014 World Series was the Giants against the Royals. Went all the way to game seven. Some of you might remember the year of Madison Baumgartner. He just dominated throughout the playoffs, put the team on his back, took him all the way to game seven of the World Series and then came in on short rest and closed it out.
0:28:38 - (Patrick Holcomb): And it was incredible for me, not just as a baseball fan, but as a human being, because I was at the same time going through something very difficult in my life. Someone very close to me, who I love very much, was ill, and the outcome was uncertain. And as the Giants were making that playoff run, I was experiencing both things simultaneously. And as I watched the team rush onto the field, when they closed out that game seven and won the championship, I knew in that moment that I had experienced something different and special, this full spectrum of human emotion.
0:29:12 - (Patrick Holcomb): And it stuck with me. And it was that moment that planted the seed that eventually grew into the premise of this book about fathers and sons and lives intertwined with baseball.
0:29:24 - (C): Yeah, that's tremendous. I certainly recognize that sometimes dreams are deferred and they just ruminate in our head, and we don't either have the opportunity or sometimes it's an inner voice that tells us we're not good enough. We've talked at length on this show about imposter syndrome, and how do I have what it takes to be an author and questioning your own preparation? It's almost human nature to discredit your own abilities.
0:29:53 - (C): So you've got an idea for a book, but an idea for a book does not create a book, and there's the writing. There are logistics associated with, do I get an editor? Do I contact an agent? Do I find a publisher? So once you finally decided that, okay, this dream is over, I'm moving to this next goal, what were the next action steps for you?
0:30:21 - (Patrick Holcomb): People laugh when I tell them what the next step was, and I am not kidding when I say that I drove to Barnes and noble and I bought a book, and it was called writing your novel from start to finish. And that book was the first real concrete step that I took because I read it cover to cover a couple times. I highlighted, I took notes, I researched things that I didn't quite understand, and I began to understand the mechanics of writing a novel, which is important.
0:30:50 - (Patrick Holcomb): And then it became a process of, you know, I have this idea. I know where the book starts and I know where it ends. So I started to imagine the characters, do character sketches, do a plot arc, and then start filling in the middle chapters of this book. And that took a lot of time. And really, I didn't have a full structure for what it was going to look like until I was a third of the way through. But once I had it, it pretty much stayed consistent even through the second, third, and fourth drafts.
0:31:21 - (C): So I teach a writing for publication course, and one of my what I feel is the most important lessons I can share with our PhD students is the importance of consistency in your writing and how, whether it's for me. I've got a basketball jersey on underneath here. When I know I'm going to write, I wear a basketball jersey. Sometimes I'll wear a sweatband, for crying out loud. The music has to be what the music is, the lighting has to be what the lighting is. The desk is what the desk is.
0:31:55 - (C): I've identified what puts me in that zone and that maybe that's old stuff from the athletic career, but it's stupid. I know it's stupid to put on a basketball jersey to write, but if it helps, it's what I'm going to do. That's what's going to facilitate my.
0:32:11 - (Patrick Holcomb): I do not think that is stupid at all. I think that anyone who has the dream, the ambition to write, needs to figure out what works for them. And once they understand what those situations look like, what they need to do to create that atmosphere where they can be productive, replicate it every day until it becomes routine. And it's really routine that makes writers successful, being able to go in there day in and day out and just create.
0:32:35 - (Patrick Holcomb): And some days you're on and some days you're not. I believe that you have a rule, don't you? Something written on a post it notes, two crappy pages every day.
0:32:44 - (C): That's right.
0:32:44 - (Patrick Holcomb): There you go. There you go. And sometimes you greatly exceed that, and sometimes you scratch to get your two. But for me, I had to create that structure and build that routine. And it was me with a laptop on the couch, usually in sweatpants, just nice and comfortable where I could just let the ideas flow.
0:33:02 - (C): Yeah. Bonus points. That tells me you've listened to at least an episode or two, so appreciate that fist bump for those that are listening. So you create this book, and we've talked about how vulnerable it is to create something, especially when it's outside your comfort zone. Let's face it, you're this tough marathoner, mountain climbing marine. We don't tend to think of them as novelists. Forgive me if I'm speaking things that aren't true.
0:33:32 - (C): Talk me through what that meant. It's one thing to write it, it's another to put out there that I've written a novel and I'm gonna release this thing, and I've got a plan in place that I'm gonna sell this. So what was that like for you?
0:33:47 - (Patrick Holcomb): I think there are two different answers to this question. So the first one is what it took to actually become vulnerable enough to write well. That in itself was a transition. That was me unlocking a place inside that had not been open for quite a while. The job that I had did not leave a lot of room for emotion. It was very analytical and logic based. So I had to rediscover a side of myself that I hadn't really been feeding for a long time.
0:34:18 - (Patrick Holcomb): So that was a challenge because you have to be able to feel those emotions if you want to infuse your characters with those emotions. And if you can't do that, if you can't succeed in writing deep characters with complex emotions, you're never going to touch a reader in the way that you want to. And if you're not doing that, then what's the point? What are you really after? So that's the first part. The second part is having courage to take this work, this passion project, this book that you believe in and put it out there in the world.
0:34:52 - (Patrick Holcomb): And, man, that's hard, too, because, you know, you know that not everyone is going to be a fan. It's not going to be everybody's cup of tea. There's going to be critics, and they're going to say some harsh things. And I haven't really felt the full brunt of that yet, but I'm sure once the book is out there, I will. I'm hoping, though, that the positive feedback is greater than that negative feedback, and I'm also going into it with thick skin.
0:35:17 - (Patrick Holcomb): I know that not everyone appreciates the same things. And in my heart, I know that I wrote a compelling story and that it has the potential to touch people in a special way. And, Toby, man, that's really what it's all about.
0:35:30 - (C): That is, being vulnerable is one of the bravest things we can do. I've discovered that it's false bravado to say that bravery is just being indifferent to fear. It is literally staring your fear right in the eyes and going ahead and doing it anyway. And whether that's producing a book or a podcast or whatever that idea knocking around in the insides of your cranium is, there's a reason you're terrified to do it. And oftentimes it's self preservation.
0:35:59 - (C): And it takes a lot of courage and strength to overcome that. It wasn't like you were professional seven and seven, or you had a big transition in the midst of this as well. You're a career marine and you retire from there as well. Would you say that transition was easier because of what you had already processed and dealt with in this other transition in your life, or was that difficult as well?
0:36:24 - (Patrick Holcomb): I was going through all of it at the same time, and I think I was fortunate in that by writing the book, I was able to put off the career transition, and it really gave me time to prepare myself for that next step. So by the time I had completed the third draft and started shopping the book to agents, I knew that I was not only ready, but eager to go back to work. Because I look at you and your life and career, you're probably like me and you're a guy who can't just sit around.
0:36:55 - (Patrick Holcomb): So I was ready to make that transition, but even then it was challenging. You know, you think, man, I'm an accomplished guy. I have skills, I have degrees. I'm sure everybody's just going to be clamoring to hire me. It doesn't work that way. And it did take some time for me not just to find a job, but to find the right job. But once I did, I took all those things that I had learned over the years as a marine, and I applied them and I hit the ground running.
0:37:21 - (C): Yeah, that's wonderful. So you've made this transition. What do your days look like today?
0:37:28 - (Patrick Holcomb): So I do have a full time job, and that does take up a lot of my time, and it's one that I enjoy. But when I come home from that, I do spend a lot of time doing tasks related to the book. As a fellow author, I think you understand how much work could go into that. And, yeah, it does take a lot of time and effort can be a little demoralizing sometimes, but there are also so many joys that go along with it, too. Too. And that's what I'm trying to focus on. I'm really trying to have a sense of gratitude as I go through this process.
0:37:57 - (Toby Brooks): Love it.
0:37:58 - (C): I absolutely love it. I think my own naivety in creating made me think that the worst thing that could happen was for someone to be critical of my work. And over the years, I think I've changed that definition. I almost, I would prefer someone to be critical of it as opposed to completely unmoved by it. I don't want someone to listen to my podcast and be like, yeah, that's just another podcast. Take a position like love it or hate it, at least I know you've consumed it.
0:38:30 - (C): And writing a book is no different. I can certainly see where we don't welcome criticisms, but at the same time, the last thing I want is for copies of my book to just sit on the shelf and it not to make the impact because you've poured your heart, you've poured years of your life into this and years before that in the pre production. And for that to fall flat and with no response to me is more tragic than I hope. It evokes some sort of emotion in my mind.
0:39:03 - (C): How would you say you're different as a result of this process that you've been through the seven and seven and your career in the Marine Corps, and now as a soon to be published authority? What lessons did you learn along the way that you think will carry through.
0:39:20 - (Patrick Holcomb): For the rest of your life? I cannot even begin to convey how thankful I am for the career that I had becoming and being a United States Marine shaped me. I was fortunate enough to have some great leaders along the way. I had some bad ones, too. And sometimes you learn more from the bad ones than the good ones. But I had some great leaders along the way who shaped and molded me. I had the opportunity to teach, coach and mentor young men and women who are out there today still serving as fantastic marines or out in the world doing so many other things.
0:40:00 - (Patrick Holcomb): So that was wonderful. Writing the book has changed me in that it unlocked that other side of me. It was a side that was dormant for a long time, but it's a side that I think will make me much more capable and successful and well rounded in whatever comes next. And from the running and climbing, you know, it really taught me to push myself, and I think that's important in whatever you do. But you don't get to the points that I got to without being able to push through a little pain and find the growth that exists on the other side of it.
0:40:44 - (Patrick Holcomb): And that's meaningful. And I'm appreciative of those experiences and how they shaped me.
0:40:49 - (Toby Brooks): Absolutely.
0:40:51 - (C): It's a remarkable tale, and I say tale.
0:40:55 - (Toby Brooks): It's not fiction.
0:40:56 - (C): This was your life. This happened. You willed that into existence, and that is commendable. It's one thing to persevere, but you were doing it at a high level. Your marathon times, I don't know what your Antarctica marathon time was, but those were impressive numbers for someone that's not a professional athlete, and it's clear that this was a critical part. You don't get those numbers just rolling out of bed. That is part of a premeditated, planned out process.
0:41:24 - (C): Sounds like you've had some time to process the loss of this one goal and the development of this next. But it wasn't easy and there were some dark days from the sounds of it. If you could go back in time and impart some wisdom to younger Patrick before this entire journey started, before that friend made that innocuous comment, hey, let's go climb Kilimanjaro, what would you tell yourself?
0:41:55 - (Patrick Holcomb): Enjoy the ride. I think that's the most important thing. You can't make everything about the summit or the finish line. It's about the journey. And I knew that, but sometimes I lost sight of that. And as I've had time to reflect on these experiences, what I remember most are the people along the way, the people that I did these things with, the relationships that I formed. So staying in the moment is something that I would tell my younger self. And to really enjoy the ride, be present, and also in the other areas of my life too.
0:42:34 - (Patrick Holcomb): Dont let it become all consuming and overwhelming. Just be present. Enjoy the people in your life, enjoy your family, because those experiences arent always going to be there for you to have. And sometimes I overlook that and I take it for granted. So that would be my advice to younger me.
0:42:52 - (C): That is sage wisdom. And it's so powerful. Time after time, I've heard high achievers lament the fact that in the midst of what they were accomplishing, they didn't take just a moment to just take it in. I remember Michael Jordan curled over the NBA championship trophy and his dad had passed away, and he just, he finally took a moment to feel what it meant to achieve that figurative summit. And so for you, these are literal summits. And I love the fact you say finish lines and summits because that's literally what you were doing, that's what you were crossing and achieving, and that is so powerful that you are, you are living out and actually achieving things. So often we think of our mountains as figurative, and that promotion is a mountain that I'm going to scale.
0:43:43 - (C): A book I always talk about is David Brooks is the second mountain where he talks about success is what we do early and significance is what we do later. And you alluded to that. Your legacy is what you poured into those people who are still serving in the Marine Corps. And I think that's so powerful. We're getting close here. I love music and the emotions that it can frequently represent. If we were to watch a montage of your life, what song would you pick to play in the background and watch why?
0:44:11 - (Patrick Holcomb): Oh man, that is a tough question. Honestly, I don't know. I don't know, man. You stumped me at the end.
0:44:20 - (C): Toby, she's a marathoner. I have to think. You've probably got a running playlist, at least. I don't. My phone doesn't work in the cold, so the climbing stuff. Do you have audio that's playing?
0:44:31 - (Patrick Holcomb): Okay. So I'm. I'm about to unleash what I call my inner weirdo here. And I'm going to tell you, I don't usually listen to music when I run. Part of the benefit of running for me was the mental health side of it, because I had hours and hours to just think through problems, to work through challenges. I was often listening to my own inner voice as I was running and not listening to music. Wow. So I'm sorry I'm gonna have to disappoint you and your fans out there.
0:44:58 - (Patrick Holcomb): Say that. I just don't know, Toby. I just don't know.
0:45:00 - (C): Wow. I can't think of anything much more abusive than running a marathon with no songs. That just tells me that you're a little bit more of a sadomasochist than I thought. Because.
0:45:14 - (Patrick Holcomb): I'm learning about myself here.
0:45:16 - (C): Yeah, for sure. What for Patrick Holcomb is yet undone.
0:45:23 - (Patrick Holcomb): So some would expect that I would say the seven and seven. And that's one answer. But I think for me, that is done. I don't think I'm going back to that. If I would say anything at this point is undone, it's probably me. I remember many years ago, I went to a leadership conference that was being hosted at Notre Dame, and there was a speaker and he was an author. And I can't remember his name or the name of the book. And I've tried over the years to find it, but I do remember one thing that he said, you are either green and growing or ripe and rotting.
0:45:59 - (Patrick Holcomb): Theres no middle ground and no in between. And that stuck with me. And ive repeated it more times than I could count to my marines over the years. And thats how I look at myself in my life, is that Im still green and growing. So, yeah, Toby, if anythings undone, its me. Im a work in progress. Theres always room for growth. And Im committed to getting there.
0:46:21 - (Toby Brooks): I love it.
0:46:22 - (C): That is fantastic. And I also love. I have a similar story. I went to a division three school for one semester. I knew I was gonna have to transfer out. When I got there, I was gonna play basketball. And we had chapel and we had a speaker. And I've gone back and tried to figure out who said it, but he gave this whole talk on the immutable sense of ought. And he talked about the voice in our head that tells us what we ought to do. And everybody day presents an opportunity to either abide by that sense of art or to deny that sense of art.
0:46:57 - (C): And to your point, the green and growing. For me, I know I need to eat right. I know I need to move my body. I know I need to read and grow, and that's what I ought to do. And sometimes I'm better at that than others. But I love the green and growing or ripe and rotting. Like the thought of complacency for a high achiever is. It's almost like a death sentence. I don't want to be a year older next year. I want to be a year better. And at some point that will catch up with all of us. But Patrick, an absolutely inspirational story. I'm so thankful that you took the time to share with us.
0:47:38 - (C): Looking forward to the book coming out. That said, how can listeners connect with your work? And where can they find where the seams meet?
0:47:44 - (Patrick Holcomb): So the book is going to be released on March 29, and I have an event here in San Diego, California on April 2 at Warwick's bookstore one up in Santa Rosa on April 12. On the 29th, though, you'll be able to find it on Barnes and Noble, Amazon, anywhere else that you buy books. And I encourage you to do so.
0:48:03 - (Toby Brooks): Awesome.
0:48:04 - (C): I will also drop your socials. I think you're on LinkedIn and Forever giant 2014.
0:48:09 - (Patrick Holcomb): And then my author website is author Patrick holcomb.com. Dot all right, Patrick, thank you so.
0:48:15 - (C): Much for joining us. It's been a real pleasure to have.
0:48:18 - (Patrick Holcomb): You on, and the pleasure was mine. Toby. I'm a fan of the show, and it's really cool to come and be a part of it. My name is Patrick Holcomb and I am undone.
0:48:27 - (Toby Brooks): So it might not have ended with.
0:48:29 - (C): A successful completion of seven marathons and.
0:48:32 - (Toby Brooks): Seven highest summits on the seven continent, but for Patrick Holcomb, it has meant the successful navigation of a military career and a recognition of a new purpose in life after the military and after the seven and seven challenge. Shortly after our interview, Patrick emailed me about that song question that he didn't quite have an answer for on the spot. And in typical high achiever fashion, he wanted some closure.
0:48:57 - (Toby Brooks): So he wrote, your question about the song has been eating at me for days. It came to me in a flash last night. Night like it had been there all along and just having a laugh at my expense. It's on the road again. By Willie Nelson. Final answer that's a fitting choice, to be sure, for a marathoner who has completed races literally all over the globe. I'm thankful to Patrick for dropping in to share his incredible and inspiring journey, and I hope you found as much encouragement and insight from the conversation as I did.
0:49:31 - (Toby Brooks): For more info on today's episode, be sure to check it out on the web. Simply go to undonepodcast.com EP eight one to see the notes, links, and images related to today's guest, Patrick holcomb. I know there are great stories out there to be told, and I'm always on the lookout. So if you or someone you know has a story that we can all be inspired by, tell me about it. Surf on over to undonepodcast.com, click the contact tab in the top menu and drop me a note.
0:49:59 - (Toby Brooks): Coming up, I've got some incredible new guests, including the second of this two part series celebrating former military personnel turned authors. As I check in with author and former marine combat aviator Isaac Lee, then hear the powerful story of entrepreneur Jeff Horne, followed by the life and exploits of former Texas tech chancellor Kent Hance. So stay tuned. This and more coming up on becoming undone becoming undone is a nitro hype creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks.
0:50:27 - (Toby Brooks): For now, I'm a one person show relying on AI tools from descript, decipher and opus clip to create, produce and deliver the best show I know how. To you, my cherished friends and listeners, I'd appreciate it if you followed the show on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn at becoming a nun pod and follow me at Tobyj Brooks on X Instagram and TikTok. Check out my link tree at Linktr ee tobyjbrooks. Listen, subscribe and leave me a review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
0:51:01 - (Toby Brooks): Till next time everybody. Keep getting better.