EP92: THE MAKING (and re-making) OF LARRY JOHNSON PART 1 with Harold Kaufman

Harold Kaufman
With over 35 years in sports, corporate, and business communications, Harold Kaufman is the founder of HK Communications, now part of Tony Fay Public Relations. He is a renowned media and communications specialist who served as the first PR representative for the Charlotte Hornets during their inaugural seasons. Kaufman also spent significant time with the New York Mets, contributing his extensive expertise in media relations and sports marketing.

Episode Summary:

In this engaging episode of Becoming UnDone, Part 1 of the Making (and re-making) of Larry Johnson docu-series," host Toby Brooks reminisces about the cultural phenomenon of Starter jackets in the 1990s and their deep connection to the Charlotte Hornets. Brooks paints a vibrant picture of the Hornets' early years, their bold teal and purple aesthetic, and the rise of basketball celebrity Larry Johnson. This episode dives into the Hornets' history, detailing their exceptional fan engagement and innovative marketing strategies that set them apart.

Brooks is joined by Harold Kaufman, the first PR representative for the Charlotte Hornets, who offers an insider’s view of the team’s initial impact and rise to fame. Kaufman discusses the monumental introduction of Larry Johnson to the team, the magnetic fan support, and how the Hornets captured the imagination of a global audience, despite their early struggles on the court. The episode also explores the ebb and flow of Johnson’s career, including his transition to the New York Knicks and his eventual reinvention as a versatile NBA player.

Key Takeaways:

• The Cultural Impact of Starter Jackets: The episode opens with Toby Brooks reflecting on the iconic status of Starter jackets, particularly the Charlotte Hornets’ teal and purple designs that became a global sensation in the early 90s.
• Founding of the Charlotte Hornets: Harold Kaufman recounts the founding of the Charlotte Hornets, highlighting the extraordinary relationship between the team and the community. The franchise quickly became the epicenter of local pride despite initial on-court struggles.
• Larry Johnson's Arrival: Johnson’s arrival in 1991, following the draft lottery win, marked a turning point for the Hornets. His personality and skill set made him an instant fan favorite and put Charlotte in the national spotlight.
• Reinvention and Legacy: The episode delves into Johnson’s career trajectory, illustrating how he adapted his playing style post-injury and left an indelible mark on the NBA, both with the Hornets and later with the Knicks.

Notable Quotes:

1. Harold Kaufman: "It's probably the most extraordinary relationship between a team and a community that I've ever witnessed or not only been a part of, but observed."
2. Toby Brooks: "Larry Johnson was everything I had ever wanted to be. He was a star. He was electric. He was a winner."
3. Harold Kaufman: "The memory of when you'd go with him through an appearance, how he was just so revered. My memory is just that smile he had, the gold tooth."

Resources:

• Tony Fay Public Relations: tonyfaypr.com
• Becoming UnDone Podcast:

Chapters

• 0:00 Nostalgic Reflections on 1990s Teal and Childhood Memories
• 2:52 The Rise and Fall of Starter Jackets in the '90s
• 13:28 The Comeback of Starter Jackets and the Quest for Coolness
• 18:42 The Rise of the Charlotte Hornets and Their Cultural Impact
• 24:46 Larry Johnson: From Dallas Streets to Basketball Stardom
• 29:11 The Birth of the Charlotte Hornets and Their Unprecedented Fan Support
• 40:24 Larry Johnson's Impact on the Charlotte Hornets and Media Presence
• 44:56 The Rise and Fall of the Hornets' Star Trio
• 48:49 The Cult Phenomenon of the Hornets in the '90s
• 56:18 Larry Johnson's Rise, Injury, and Reinvention in the NBA
• 1:02:27 Harold Kaufman Reflects on NBA History and Personal Insights

Transcript

0:00:02 - (Toby Brooks): This is becoming undone. It was everywhere. Like, literally everywhere. Hats, jackets, t shirts, shopping malls, paper drink cups. My favorite all time application, at least at the time, was a tricked out Chuchus Customs GMC extended cab pickup sitting just outside the showroom floor at Holland GMC and Cadillac near my parents place in Harrisburg, Illinois. That truck taunted me as I delivered pizzas in my ratty old Chevy s ten.

0:00:37 - (Toby Brooks): And that sparkling new GMC had a low ring kit, polished aluminum wheels, and color matched grill and running boards. And not just a cool color, but the cool color of the 1990s teal. Specifically, the truck was medium dark teal metallic, but still, it was teal. If you weren't there in the early nineties, I don't think you can fully understand just how much teal there was in 1991. And let's face it, it was a pretty welcome change, despite what you see romanticized in modern day nostalgia about the eighties being all neon. Everything for most of us. We grew up in homes that hadn't been updated and still showed plenty of signs of the seventies brown orange, tobacco stained yellow.

0:01:25 - (Toby Brooks): My childhood home had this brownish orange sculptured shag carpet in the living room, with yellow linoleum floors in the adjoining kitchen. It also sported the ever so stylish formica countertops with that trendy at the time but ever so awful harvest gold on the appliances. Thankfully, no paneling, but just because it wasn't in my house didn't mean there was none. My grandpa's house, my dad's dad's place, was a town over.

0:01:53 - (Toby Brooks): It was completely covered inside with cheap dark fake wood paneling. He was a sworn bachelor who loved pabs, blue ribbon marlboros with the filters broken off and a steady stream of boxing. On HBO. He played mandolin in a bunch of local bluegrass bands and worked for the state, which made him pretty cool in my book. I begged to spend the night with him as often as I could because I dug his loner musician vibe, but like most loners, he didn't have much use for kids, especially me.

0:02:23 - (Toby Brooks): Regardless, I still have a peak childhood core memory of playing darts in his kitchen until 01:00 a.m. when I was probably six years old. On one of the two or three times he let me stay with him. Instead of harvest gold appliances, he had the other must have color of the era, avocado green. So yeah, much of my childhood was spent in a color palette now reserved for puke and or poop emojis. But sweet salvation was coming.

0:02:52 - (Toby Brooks): In the early nineties, along came teal. And if you were really cool, purple and teal. The first article of clothing I could remember buying with my own money was a dollar 100 San Jose shark starter jersey. Adjusted for inflation, that's $230.59, probably more tomorrow at the rate inflation's going. But anyhow, I work two jobs to pay for it. One is a dishwasher at a bed and breakfast and another making pizzas.

0:03:21 - (Toby Brooks): As cool as that jersey was, crap is, I still have it. What with the shark chomping through the hockey stick and the bold teal base color with the black pinstripes, it wasn't iconic eighties and nineties brand starters most popular team according to an informal fan poll on ranker.com, comma, the Sharks come in at just fifth. Even some classic franchises got in on the wave of teal, most notably, in my memories, the Seattle Mariners and Detroit Pistons.

0:03:52 - (Toby Brooks): And I'll shout out one of my all time favorite podcasts, 60 songs that explain the nineties and its creator and host, Rob Harvilla, with a top ten list planted right here in the first few minutes of this series inspired by his work. So here are the top ten starter jackets from the nineties, as uploaded by sports mockery on ranker.com, even though they put the apostrophe for the nineties in the wrong place, starting with number ten, the Duke Blue Devils.

0:04:27 - (Toby Brooks): Yuck. Number nine, the Phoenix Suns. More on them later. Number eight, the iconic North Carolina Tar Heels. Number seven, Dallas Cowboys. America's team. Number six, the Orlando Magic. Number five, those San Jose Sharks at number four, the San Francisco 49 ers. Number three, the Miami dolphins. Number two, Chicago Bulls. But the top of the list? Number one, the Charlotte freaking hornets. No one seems to know exactly why the expansion hornets gained an almost cult like following among teens in the early nineties, but that iconic hornets starter jacket was either chicken or egg.

0:05:14 - (Toby Brooks): Were the hornets popular because of the jacket, or were the jackets popular because of the hornets? In my case, yes. Author Katie Baker once referred to the unmistakable purple and teal nylon coat as the starterest starter jacket of all time. And she's not wrong. I saw a meme just last week that showed that glorious hornets version of the iconic starter winter outerwear, essential with text that said no one knows why, but at some point in the nineties, every kid owned this jacket.

0:05:47 - (Toby Brooks): Please understand that wasn't just a meme, that was 100% factually accurate. Admittedly, the starter jacket, despite its stranglehold as a social status symbol in my world in the early nineties, later fell on hard times. As a matter of fact, I'm working on another documentary on the starter company itself. But over the years, as the nineties gave way to the two thousands, those mountains of cool kids jackets eventually became marginally cool, and then not cool at all.

0:06:18 - (Toby Brooks): Mine was holed up in my parents extra bedroom closet for nearly 30 years before they threw it out with a bunch of my other stuff that I actually wanted back at some point. Thanks, mom. Like most others, though, it ended up donated to goodwill or Salvation army or somewhere else. If my mom had known how much an authentic starter jacket would eventually go for, there's no way she would have done anything other than sell it on Facebook marketplace.

0:06:43 - (Toby Brooks): Sadly. Instead, my coat likely faced the same fate of millions of others, where they became like the unofficial uniform for crackheads in the unwashed masses of the two thousands. If homelessness, drug use, military fatigues and nineties pop culture were depicted on a Venn diagram, the Charlotte Hornets starter jacket would live proudly at its core, one click over from that previously mentioned meme about all of us nineties kids, owning one was another image, this time of an unkempt, bearded dude looking like he's headed to harvest your catalytic converter with his hornets jacket on with the words I'm looking for your high theft merchandise.

0:07:21 - (Toby Brooks): Another read, this jacket said you were cool in the nineties. Across the top and across the bottom said today it means you're in drug treatment. Ouch. It had indeed been a mighty tumble from the pinnacle of cool in the early nineties to the grungy shelves of the thrift stores and the chosen attire of street criminals a decade later for starter. And just like that crackhead, the starter corporation itself had fallen on hard times, too.

0:07:46 - (Toby Brooks): While my earliest recollections were as a status brand of my youth in the early nineties, starter actually started in 1971 when founder David Beckerman created a company focused on producing, his words, high quality athletic jackets. The company began as a source for athletic gear for the players and staff of various teams of all levels, youth sports included, rather than as the fan apparel they'd later be known for.

0:08:11 - (Toby Brooks): However, that began to change first in 1976 when Beckerman signed a licensing deal with Major League Baseball, and was cemented in 1983 when he brokered a deal with the NFL, making Starter the official supplier of sideline jackets for the entire league. From 1985 to 2000, Starter was an official on field, on court supplier for every major professional sports league, while Starter's jackets remained the company's signature offering.

0:08:41 - (Toby Brooks): Eventually, jerseys, hats and other team branded apparel were added. My friends and I all went to the mall after taking our dates to dinner for prom so that we could buy matching starter hats to wear in our prom pictures. Super cool, I know. By that time, starter was a pop culture brand frequently seen in music videos of artists the like of NWA and Wu Tang Clan.

0:09:04 - (Toby Brooks): Cash rules everything around me free get the money dollar, dollar bill.

0:09:09 - (Harold Kaufman): Yum.

0:09:09 - (Toby Brooks): Eddie Murphy and Arsenio hall are seen wearing starter gear and coming to America. Good morning, my neighbors R and B group Jodeci repped four different teams and jackets on the back cover of their 1991 album Forever My lady, with lead KC Haley and member Dalvin Mister Dalvin degree wearing white pinstripe Chicago white socks, hatsheen and Joel Haley and Devontae swing rocking black ones. And who could forget the kid rap duo crisscross with their backward starter jerseys?

0:09:47 - (Toby Brooks): They wore their matching jerseys from UNC Duke, the Oakland A's, the New York Yankees, the LA Raiders, the University of Illinois, the Chicago White Sox, plus LA Lakers starter windbreakers, all on backwards. Not to mention, for some reason, massive, fur trimmed, fully zipped winter coats on the beach in the video for their 1992 hit Warm it up. If you count those at $100 apiece, which was pretty much what they went for back then, you're looking at a starter budget in 1992 of $1,600.

0:10:34 - (Toby Brooks): Their kid rap rivals, another bad creation, even mentioned starter by name in their hit Playground, which probably featured, rough guess, 30,000 worth of branded gear on the five kid group and their whole crew. In the songs video, Fresh Prince of Bel Air star Will Smith and his pal Jazz frequently rocked a starter jersey and or a rotated starter cap on the show. Now this is a story all about how my life got flipped, turned upside down, and I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there.

0:11:28 - (Harold Kaufman): I'll tell you how I became the.

0:11:29 - (Toby Brooks): Prince of a town called Bel Air. I didn't have time to do a deep dive here, but let's just say it was a key part of the aesthetic. The star was everywhere, but sadly, it didn't last. That star flamed out. Media reports of kids being robbed at gunpoint for their Nikes and their starter jackets became increasingly common. The brand started to tank. Beckerman tried to save it by taking the company public, but in 1999, starter was bankrupt.

0:11:59 - (Toby Brooks): What was left of the company was snapped up for pennies on the dollar by one time rival Nike and relaunched as a hold your nose value sportswear brand in 2004 with no licensing deals. Something like a wish version of Nike or Reebok at the time before there even was a wish. I remember the horror when I saw the once revered s with a star logo on a pair of basketball shorts hanging on a rack at Walmart for $8.

0:12:25 - (Toby Brooks): I almost cried. A shell of its former self, starter remained a non licensed, no team affiliated, cheap sportswear brand from 2004 through the 2010s, being acquired by iconics along the way in 2007. However, without most of us even knowing it, the brand quietly launched a new NCAA collection in 2015, making gear for over 120 top college programs. In 2017, they launched an Amazon store, and in 2018, Starter became the official brand and uniform of the short lived alliance of American Football.

0:13:01 - (Toby Brooks): Sadly, that league ended up folding just eight weeks into what was a planned ten week inaugural season. Ouch. There may be an episode or even a series about that one in here at some point, but all of that happened without me knowing it. I was thrilled to discover that starter was back. Earlier this year, I stumbled across an ad on social media that prompted me to surf over to their site, where an odd mixture of gear awaited.

0:13:28 - (Toby Brooks): Sure, the site looks nice and it's well done, but the online inventory is unexplainably incomplete. While all the leagues are present, not all the teams are there, and some teams only have a t shirt or hat available. I immediately looked for a coat. Sadly and inexplicably, no hornets, no panthers, no sharks, no Marlins. In my mind, starter jackets were all a rage before they became the unofficial uniform of your town's team, meth.

0:13:57 - (Toby Brooks): But I figured it had been long enough. Retro is all about what's cool again, and if they were selling new starter jackets, I wanted in and I wanted teal. But they didn't have teal. Undeterred, I managed to find a purple Phoenix Suns breakaway nylon half zipped jacket. It was the classic cut and style that all eugenicsers remember all those years ago, right down to the embroidered starter logo at the end of the left sleeve and the metal s logo zipper tag, and the roomy kangaroo style pouch on the front.

0:14:32 - (Toby Brooks): It was new and cool and just different enough to let everyone know that it wasn't a ten dollar thrift store find that I'd kept out of the hands of a convicted criminal on parole. I figured with the restyled and updated suns logo, it made it obvious that it was a new thing. I thought I'd be the envy of all the gen x dads. Or so I thought. I I ordered one. It was February and it was still starter jacket cold and lubbock, so I knew I'd have a month or two to proudly rock it when it arrived. I tore the box open like it was Christmas all over again in 1991, and I eagerly wore it that night to my son's baseball game.

0:15:13 - (Toby Brooks): My friend and fellow player dad, Trent Petry, noticed it right away when I got to the ballpark. That jacket is cool, he said. I beamed with pride. Man, you must have pulled that out way back in the closet, he added. My pride sprinted for the exit. I was hurt. I literally got it shipped from the factory and it arrived today. And I pull it out of the package today and I put it on today, I said to Trent.

0:15:41 - (Toby Brooks): He backed away. Nah, it's cool, he said. I just haven't seen one in a long time, noted Trent. It was clear my plans hadn't worked. I had to go back to the drawing board. I loved that starter jacket that made a comeback. But I wanted cool points for wearing it, not to be thought of as someone who hadn't bought a new coat in 30 years. So I went back to the starter site and I found a Seattle Kraken version of that same breakaway nylon half zip jacket.

0:16:11 - (Toby Brooks): The colorway was mostly quote unquote deep sea blue are translated out of bougie designer speak navy blue. But that Kraken's complementary ice blue is kind of a greenish Carolina blue that could almost pass for teal. So here's my line of thinking. The NHL's Kraken franchise didn't even exist when starter jackets were cool the first time. There would be no confusing my new Kraken jacket with a well preserved antique coat that had been forgotten in the recesses of my clothes storage.

0:16:45 - (Toby Brooks): I got it a week later, and it immediately became my favorite article of clothing. I wore it to my sons next game. Shortly thereafter, I was ejected for other reasons that maybe ill tell you about some other time. Ill just say I was framed by another parent player dad and leave it at that. Anyhow, as cool as my Kraken jacket is, it still isn't a hornet's jacket. Sidebar in researching this episode, I actually found a somewhat sketchy site that had current modern Hornets starter jackets for sale with a new logo and everything for just $85 and free shipping.

0:17:23 - (Toby Brooks): So I ordered it. Stay tuned to a future episode to see if it actually arrives and becomes my shame inducing third new starter jacket of 2024. But back to 1991, emblazoned with that now iconic cartoon hornet dribbling a basketball surrounded by the tackle. Twill block lettering spelling out Charlotte arched over the top and hornets scooping upward on the bottom if you were a kid in the nineties, and even if you didn't have a hornet starter jacket, and to be clear, I did, you knew someone who did.

0:17:57 - (Toby Brooks): At 150 $19.91, that was almost $350 to rep a team most of us didn't even know about. Not yet, anyway. So thinking back to that chicken or egg conundrum, I can't remember if I got my Hornet starter jacket because I thought it was cool. And again, to be clear, it was. Or because I was following the team, which, to be even clearer, I eventually did. Either way, what was not to love? The Hornets franchise joined the NBA in 1988, along with the non teal Miami Heat, and you could argue that Charlotte's trendy purple and teal color scheme was a direct rejection to our growing hatred of the dingy colors we were all used to.

0:18:42 - (Toby Brooks): However, today, in hindsight, I'd say their specific use of the palette threw the whole thing into a whole new orbit for me. Without a doubt, I love the logos and the color schemes of the San Jose Sharks, but somehow they fell short for me. I never played hockey and have only tried ice skating once in my life. But where the Sharks fell short, the Hornets came strong. I loved basketball, and I loved new stuff and new teams and young stars.

0:19:13 - (Toby Brooks): The Hornets had all that and more. The expansion Hornets owed their first version, 1.0, to Carolina businessman George Shinna, a self made millionaire who famously finished dead last in his high school's graduating class. Although Shannon was a huge baseball fan, his efforts to bring an MLB club to North Carolina fizzled out, so he turned his attention to basketball. Deep in the heart of ACC country, Charlotte was an epicenter for college hoops, so it made sense to try and bring big time basketball to the area.

0:19:45 - (Toby Brooks): Famously, the branding for those uniforms created a stir before the first head coach, Dick Harder, had so much as a single player on the roster. Legendary designer and North Carolina native Alexander Julian came up with the unique and eventually decade defining color palette, along with the cool pinstripe uniforms. Accounts of the time aren't clear about who actually designed the logo, but all I know is that I thought it was all very, very cool.

0:20:14 - (Toby Brooks): I posed for senior pictures in a cheap cotton tank top knockoff replica of the rode teal version. Mine didn't even have pinstripes, but I still loved it enough to pose for the most important pictures of my life at the time. So in 1987, in 1988, Charlotte had a ton of momentum behind the idea of basketball. But colors and logos and pinstripes will only get a basketball team. So far, what they needed was a team consisting of actual basketball players, and that works for me as well.

0:20:47 - (Toby Brooks): Growing up in rural southern Illinois, I was a huge Kentucky Wildcats fan. The Hornets picked Wildcat, sharpshooter and white man can jump slam dunk specialist Rex Chapman as their first overall pick. Not far behind, they acquired mugsy bogues and now famous because of his kid, Dell Curry. Like a lot of expansion teams, those first few seasons of Charlotte basketball were a little rough around the edges.

0:21:11 - (Toby Brooks): In 89, the team finished 20 and 62, awful enough for last in the Eastern Conferences Atlantic Division, and better only than fellow expansion team Miami, who went an even worse 15 and 67. Despite how bad their guys were on the floor, Charlotte supported their new team, where they led the league in attendance with nearly 950,000 fans in the stands for the year. The next season in 89 90, their record actually got worse as they went 19 and 63 and fired coach harder along the way at 40 games into the season.

0:21:45 - (Toby Brooks): But again, bad basketball still managed good support, with attendance actually higher than their inaugural season. Over 979,000 fans made it through the turnstiles to watch games that season in Charlotte Coliseum. The roster was still filled with names I'd never heard of, and in a pre Internet stone age, it was hard to get hornets highlights in southern Illinois with no cable television. I'll tell the story of the ex county sheriff who sold illegally chipped satellite receiver systems at another time, but let's just say that I knew they had Kurt Rambus, the doofy white guy with the goggles that used to play for the Lakers, and then they added University of North Carolina big man Jr. Reed.

0:22:24 - (Toby Brooks): Other than that, I just rocked my jersey and jacket and hoped no one asked for specifics that might out me as a t shirt or in my case, starter jacket fan. Not much changed in 1991 as I started seeing my first varsity action as a high school basketball player myself. At the same time, the Hornets started trending in the right direction. They posted a 26 and 56 record, which was again dead last in their division, but still good enough for a franchise record 26 wins.

0:22:52 - (Toby Brooks): Hey, it's easy to set franchise records when your team is a whole three years old. However, in the midst of all that sucking, something happened. The Hornets started to actually add some talent through the draft or through their trade leverage that comes from having top draft slots due to horrible season records. Case in point, the Hornets got the number one pick in the 1991 NBA draft, and the tide of the team began to shift with their selection of Larry Johnson out of UNLV by way of Odessa College.

0:23:25 - (Toby Brooks): That 91 92 team would go 31 and 51 before picking up big man Alonzo mourning out of Georgetown in 1992 and posting the first winning record in franchise history. And that trio of bogues, Mourning and Johnson were like the new money of the NBA. Jersey sales were through the roof. Highlights were deep and plentiful on my beloved Saturday morning tv show NBA inside stuff with a Madra shod and my then dream girl will obey.

0:23:54 - (Toby Brooks): I specifically remember watching my first Hornets game on this new network called TNT. I invited my friends over. We made a whole thing of it. I lived out in the middle of nowhere. The house where I grew up still doesnt have cable access and with the advent of streaming and the Internet it never will. But somewhere in my childhood we got a ten foot satellite dish and some random November or December of my junior year.

0:24:18 - (Toby Brooks): I distinctly remember eating popcorn and watching the Hornets with my two best friends. Brian and Mark. Bogues was a lightning quick guard and at five three he was kind of a novelty act. On the other end was Alonzo Mourning, who at 610 played center but always wore these double width wristbands down at his actual wrists like I did when I was five. It was kind of gross. Everyone knows cool guys wear a single band on their forearm like MJ.

0:24:46 - (Toby Brooks): That detail alone was reason enough for me to not gravitate toward Alonso. Plus, I hated playing center. At six four, I was sadly the tallest guy in my high school's athletic conference. I got stuck playing the five spot my whole life. But I didn't want to be a big lumbering goof like Bill Cartwright, Bill Laimbeer or some other stiff. I wanted to be more like athletic power forwards like Horace Grant, Charles Barkley, Sean Kemp.

0:25:13 - (Toby Brooks): Now, admittedly, I was in no way, shape or form like any of those dudes, but the heart wants what it wants. And speaking of shape and wanting what we want, enter Larry Johnson. Johnson was a pivotal piece of the 1990 and 1991 UNLV, running Rebels teams that were everything I loved about college basketball. Fast paced, high octane offense, stifling defense and dunks. All the dunks. Head coach Jerry Tarkanian, rest in peace, looked like a Muppets character to me on the sidelines with his trademarked towel to suck on during the games.

0:25:49 - (Toby Brooks): UNLV destroyed Duke by 30 to win the national championship in 1990, making it all the sweeter since it was Duke again. Gross followed by a perfect 270 regular season in 1991, but they fell short of their bid for back to back titles, losing to Duke in the Final Four for the last time. Gross a roster full of star power. The Rebels future NBA players included Greg Anthony and Stacey Augment. They were key, but for me, the power forward was the star of the show.

0:26:24 - (Toby Brooks): Larry Freaking Johnson. Listed at six, seven and anywhere between 235 and 250 pounds, LJ was a beast. Athletic, quick, ever present smile, part down the middle, gold tooth. The guy seemed to play the game in a different gear than most, and he also seemed to be genuinely enjoying the hell out of it in the process. I remember him for a suffocating defense and his incredible athleticism. Before there was Zion Williamson, there was Larry Johnson.

0:26:57 - (Toby Brooks): Of that 235 to 250 pounds, I think at least 20 of it was housed squarely in his traps. He was absolutely yoked. He looked like a greek God among a bunch of dorky athletes in that national championship game against Duke. I guess now is as good a time as any to mention it. My name is Toby Brooks. I'm a professor, a speaker, an author and forever student and this is becoming undone, the podcast where we look at how sometimes things have to fall apart before they fall into place.

0:27:28 - (Toby Brooks): And starting this week, were digging into a multi part series on one of my childhood heroes, Larry Johnson. On this journey, we're going to take a look at Larry Stark coming out of a rough Dallas neighborhood before eventually playing at Skyline High School for Texas High School Basketball hall of Fame coach JD Mayo. We'll follow him to Odessa College, where he ended up after having his scholarship offer from SMU revoked by an overzealous new college president.

0:27:55 - (Toby Brooks): Undeterred, Johnson would go on to become a star at Odessa, being awarded back to back junior college player of the year honors. Next we'll head north to Las Vegas, where he won a national championship as part of arguably the best and most dominant college basketball team in history, the 89 through 91 UNLV running Rebels. But where I went from being aware of LJ to being a true fan of LJ was undoubtedly Charlotte, where my worlds collided.

0:28:24 - (Toby Brooks): A jacked and ripped high flying power forward and purple and teal. Larry Johnson was everything I had ever wanted to be. He was a star. He was electric. He was a winner. But it wasn't always that way, and it wouldn't always stay that way.

0:28:44 - (Toby Brooks): Joining me today is Harold Kaufman. Harold is the founder of HK Communications and is now part of Tony Faye Przenhouse. He's a media and communication specialist with over 35 years in sports, corporate and business communications. Most importantly for this show, he was there for the start of the Charlotte Hornets organization and served as their first pr bizarre, and also spent a significant amount of time with the New York Mets. So, Harold, thanks for joining me today.

0:29:11 - (Harold Kaufman): Great to be with you, Toby. I'm looking forward to discussing my NBA route.

0:29:15 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

0:29:16 - (Toby Brooks): If my findings are correct, you were the Hornets first pr rep, going all the way back to the start of the franchise in 1990, 1988. What do you recall about that era in the NBA in general? And what was that experience like specifically in Charlotte?

0:29:31 - (Harold Kaufman): Yeah, it's a story that, to be honest, will never be replicated and doesn't need to be forgotten either. So I appreciate you bringing it to light, because it's probably the most extraordinary relationship between a team and a community that I've ever witnessed or not only been a part of, but observed. We started in 88. Charlotte was a city at the time where we used to call it the ch factor. People didn't realize where Charlotte was or that it was in North Carolina.

0:30:06 - (Harold Kaufman): And then you think of North Carolina and you think of, it's just a college basketball haven, right, with the ACC, that triangle area, and all the legendary teams that exist in the state. But George Shin, our original owner, had this vision and this passion and was one that was relentless in his pursuit and wouldn't take no for an answer. And at the end of the day, the classic story, David Stern called him and said, not only is Charlotte going to get an expansion team, but they're going to be the first city chosen to receive an expansion team.

0:30:42 - (Harold Kaufman): So here we are. 1988, I was in Dallas, just graduated SMU, and the Mavericks at the time were the most recent expansion team. So Charlotte personnel spent a lot of time in Dallas, just learning and going over just best practices and different things in that market. And so I was able to connect and meet George Shin and meet Carl Scheer, the first general manager, so called president of the organization.

0:31:11 - (Harold Kaufman): And I was hired. And here we go. Expansion in Charlotte, North Carolina. And again, it was something just extraordinary that the NBA at the time was obviously in Ada. David Stern had brought it to new heights that had never seen before. Right. You have the early part of the decade where Magic Johnson and Larry Bird put the league on a trajectory that just kept it soaring. And then, of course, Michael Jordan enters the fray and enters a whole new level.

0:31:46 - (Harold Kaufman): So the popularity was tremendous, and you still wondered. We had the Charlotte Coliseum at the time it was built. It was built for two reasons, to host a final four and to attract the ACC tournament, which he did. Bo. But here comes the NBA. It's 24,000 seats, the most seats of any and we're in the smallest market at the time in the league. As, as we get underway, there's a wonder. But I'll. I'll take you to that first game on November 4, 1988, and it was going to be the first ever game of the Hornets. Our owner, George Shin, actually had an episode that later turned out to be a mild stroke where he went to the hospital. But we went, we went on. We played the Cleveland Cavaliers, who were pretty good team, Brad Dougherty and Mark Price, and they were a 50 plus win team, a really solid club, and everybody dressed in tuxedos that night, 24,000. And there was just a feel, an excitement in the air, and we went on to lose that night by 40 play points.

0:33:02 - (Harold Kaufman): Now, not one person had left the arena, which is crazy. And here we are at the end of the game. The crowd is giving the club a standing ovation, and our players are looking around as to maybe they're just cheering, but they were cheering. Just the fact that the NBA was there and there was an appreciation and an excitement just for the fact that here we are watching a team with Charlotte across their jerseys.

0:33:29 - (Toby Brooks): Sure.

0:33:30 - (Harold Kaufman): And an acknowledgement that the NBA had arrived. The wins and losses at that time didn't matter. What mattered was we were relevant. We were now on the map. This is Charlotte entering a realm and a recognition that it never had even experienced in the past. So that was a special night, even though we did lose, like I said.

0:33:52 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, at that time, certainly, as you said, ACC basketball had deep roots there, and NASCAR, obviously, but that predated the Panthers or the Hurricanes or any of those other teams. Charlotte was a city on the rise. And so this was the first outside verification of that growth. And so it was an exciting thing. And I can remember that era like my middle school and high school years, there were a fair amount of expansion franchises across the leagues, and I gravitated towards that. I love the new logos and the new colors, and it was just exciting.

0:34:27 - (Toby Brooks): It felt like it was my team, as opposed to, like you said, the Mavericks or thinking way back, like the Houston Astro, when those teams were added, that was a previous generation's new team. So we now know that there were familiar names, Rex Chapman and Muggsy Bogues, those early years, but despite that, the team really struggled. But as you said, the support was incredible from those first few seasons.

0:34:54 - (Toby Brooks): How would you describe what the fans reaction was to the encore product? Because it was not Duke or North Carolina elite tier success.

0:35:03 - (Harold Kaufman): No. You know, what immediately translated to the fans was even though we weren't winning in particular. This was basketball at the highest level. And nobody was more passionate than the sport of basketball than what you would find in the state of North Carolina. And so it almost told you, wow, we've got magic Johnson coming to our market. We've got Karl Malone coming to our market, players of that stature.

0:35:30 - (Harold Kaufman): And early on, it was just a place to be seen. It was the thing to do. We controlled the controllables. And what I mean by that is we made sure that the experience was at the highest level. And that goes into the detail of the music played during timeouts and the entertainment at halftime and all the different ancillary kind of promotions that you would have throughout the games. And it was always moving and it was always fun, and it was always loud and people were engaged.

0:36:01 - (Harold Kaufman): We used to have this flipping fan, and it wasn't even scripted. And he used to come out and he was a heavyset guy, but yet he'd still do about five backflips across the basketball court and things like that. That just made the experience so unique. And you knew that you came to the Charlotte Coliseum, you were going to see something special. But, yeah, it also, what was really funny in that we had Alexander Julian might recollect, he's the one that designed our uniforms, and they were purple, and teal was a very color at that time, and it entered the NBA. And I remember we used to even have pleats in our shorts.

0:36:39 - (Harold Kaufman): I was still in the short era. Jordan hadn't come along yet, and I dressed accordingly and brought the shorts down a little further. But it was just that kind of people. Our merchandise sales, I think, were top in the league. I think people around the world, we would get photos from people in different countries wearing Charlotte Hornet merchandise in gear. And I think, to be honest, half of those people didn't even know what the Charlotte Hornets were, but they just, they loved the color scheme.

0:37:10 - (Harold Kaufman): Yeah, purple and teal were such a nice scheme, and they liked the mascot. You go the hornet. And it was just something that I think caught on. And everybody in the city wore Hornets gear, and it was just something that you never seen. So it's like, man, this is going like this, and we're in the midst of a 20 win season. Just think when we build this thing and actually get some wins under our belt. And I'll tell you a quick, you know, at that time, every team was required to appear on national tv at least once a year. And so we had our tnt game. Naturally, they decided to air the game where it was the Bulls coming to town.

0:37:45 - (Harold Kaufman): So it was Michael Jordan's first ever professional appearance. Back in the state of North Carolina. And it was December 23, 1988. And Jordan comes back for the first time. The place is electric. We don't expect to win, but we expect here, our team. With Charlotte across our chest. We're competing against the great Michael Jordan. Turns out it's a nip and tug game. And come down to the fourth quarter. We're right there. We're right in it.

0:38:13 - (Harold Kaufman): We actually have the ball down a point and down the last few seconds. And Kelly Tripuka takes a shot, I think misses. Kurt Rambis is under the basket, gets the rebound, puts it in as the buzzer sounds.

0:38:31 - (Toby Brooks): And kick out the person he wants to get the ball to.

0:38:34 - (Harold Kaufman): Kempton.

0:38:35 - (Toby Brooks): Seven on the shot. Kempton double team, find three two on the shot clock. Partially blocked. Hypno. Rambos again. Yes. Game, will. I caught it. Game.

0:38:52 - (Toby Brooks): Rambo.

0:38:53 - (Toby Brooks): Shut the buzzer. It's over. The Hornets win the game. That's the buzzer. Listen to this crowd.

0:39:10 - (Harold Kaufman): And we win. And the place is going nuts, and everybody's screaming. I'd never seen a more hysterical crowd in my life. In fact, it reminds you of when you'd leave a Hornets game. It was like some of those times when you leave a concert and your ears are ringing. That's how it was when you left this basketball game. Because for two plus hours straight, it was just this high, just level of noise. Right. But we win that game, and that was the beginning of what we call Hornets hysteria.

0:39:42 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

0:39:42 - (Harold Kaufman): From that point on, that was the start of over 300 consecutive sellouts. Yeah, we're talking 24,000. Right.

0:39:51 - (Toby Brooks): And those, like we said, those are 21 teams.

0:39:54 - (Harold Kaufman): Ten minutes.

0:39:54 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

0:39:55 - (Harold Kaufman): For a team that wasn't even in playoff contention.

0:39:58 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. So it wasn't long after, before some roster acquisitions. You've got the support of a community, entire city and entire region, for that matter, for a team that's bottom of the standings. And then Kendall Gill, junior Reed, and then Larry Johnson as the first pick in 1991. You're a Dallas guy. Larry's a Dallas guy. What do you remember about LJ coming to the franchise?

0:40:24 - (Harold Kaufman): Yeah, it was something. We have to start at the lottery. Here we are. We're regulars at the lottery at this point, obviously, each year. And we got lucky. And I'll never forget, I'd gone up to the lottery with Alan Bristow at that time, was our general manager and our ownership. And we. We got lucky. We got the number one pick. And Alan and I were coming back, he goes, Harold, this is. Are we ready for this? This is going to put us on another new platform, is going to raise our level of awareness to a whole new level. And the excitement, because that year we knew the draft consisted of.

0:41:00 - (Harold Kaufman): At the time, it wasn't obvious to pick Larry because you had. I remember the top core picks that we brought in that year were Kenny Anderson, Georgia Tech point guard, LJ from UNLV, Dikembe Mutombo from Georgetown, and Billy Owens from Syracuse. Those were sort of your four that you had to gauge as to who you felt might have the greatest impact. It turned out when Larry came in and he was a man child, he was just one of these specimens. And the physicality and the skill level was just off the chart.

0:41:34 - (Harold Kaufman): Obviously, everybody, you know, what he did at UNLV and the national title, one of the probably great college teams of all time with him and Greg Anthony and Stacey Augment. And so we get the number one pick and Larry comes to town. We do an introductory press conference. It just captured the city. We were probably the COVID of every section of the Charlotte observer. And it just, it put us on the map even to a greater level, because we knew that, okay, with this you hope to establish some more wins. And that first year that in 91, that Larry was.

0:42:09 - (Harold Kaufman): We continue to grow. Actually, our second season we took a step back. We only won 19 games. Then the third season, I think we got to 26. And then you get into the thirties and you're growing it. And Larry definitely elevated us. He was rookie of the year, so he had an amazing year. He was a new version of Charles Barkley of the league and was just the personality galore and it was good. Now, with my dealings with Larry, we would pick and choose what a lot of things that we would do from a national level. Because he, at the first time, he was a little bit hesitant on doing a lot of media, and rightfully so, there was a trust issue because at UNLV they had been under structure scrutiny and they, fairly or unfairly, the reality was, is that they just, a lot of people took a lot of shots at that team. And there were a lot of thoughts about whether they were recruiting, violating, you know, all this, all this, all these topics that were away from the court that he, I think, resented that whole team did.

0:43:17 - (Harold Kaufman): And here he is in Charlotte, which is, we're a small market, so it's good. At the time, it wasn't New York, it wasn't Los Angeles. But again, Larry put us on a new level. And then the endorsements came, the big converse endorsement, which put us really on the map because here he is in a Charlotte Hornet uniformity dressing up as grandmama, the famous grandmama. And just to show you this is a whole new level because wed go to New York and the David Letterman show would want Larry.

0:43:50 - (Harold Kaufman): So we went one time and did the David Letterman show. Ill never forget. We had to stop because he had lost his earring. So we had to stop at a jewelry store and he had to get a new earring for that. And they dropped a pretty penny. Isnt that he wasn't going on Letterman without his ear again? Yes, but doing things like the David Letterman show and just things of that nature that people recognized who he was.

0:44:16 - (Harold Kaufman): I'll never forget the funniest thing. We're at the Letterman show and at the same time Robin Williams is a guest on that show. And what was the misses doubtfire.

0:44:29 - (Toby Brooks): Misses doubtfire, right.

0:44:30 - (Harold Kaufman): Where Robin Williams dresses up as the woman.

0:44:33 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

0:44:33 - (Harold Kaufman): So there actually is a conversation in the green room that takes place between Larry Johnson and Robin and Williams about the different methods and what it's like to dress up as a woman. These are things that Robin Williams here knows who Larry is and knows all about his play and what he does. So it really was an exciting time for the video.

0:44:56 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, for sure. So his star power is just growing. And Alonzo mourning comes in 92, and there's been a lot said about their relationship over time and how things ended with them. But I sure remember the new money feel of the uniforms and Mugsy and Larry and Alonzo being the new trio to take over where maybe Jordan and Pippin or magic and worthy, those kinds of things. But eventually there were contract disputes and that relationship soured. And then there's the famous 98 playoff game where they got in a fight.

0:45:31 - (Toby Brooks): What was your perspective on their relationship over the years leading up to their respective departures from Charlotte?

0:45:37 - (Harold Kaufman): Yeah, early on they had relationship. They had a good relay. They were good teammates. Both were unselfish players. Both wanted to win. In 1993, we played the Celtics in our first ever playoff series in appearance. And Alonso hits the shot at the top of the key, a four, which essentially clinches that series for us. There's photos, Larry and Alonzo just hugging, and there was a camaraderie and they were fine. And Mugsy was the glue, too, because, you know, Mugsy made those guys better because Mugsy noted for being five three.

0:46:19 - (Harold Kaufman): But at that time, Mugsy was as good of a playmakers. There was in the league. He could get to anywhere on the court he wanted. He could set those guys up, and he was a good match. You had Dell Curry, who opened up the floor, right? He was a great three point shooter. Not as good as his son, as we know, but for us, Dell was as pure a shot as there was in the league at the time. And so everybody felt we'd reached that plateau where he crossed over to becoming a 50 win team.

0:46:51 - (Harold Kaufman): Were we good enough to beat those Bulls teams? No, we weren't alone either, but, no, nobody was. But we really had a team that we felt could contend. And then the contract situation happened where Larry signs the $84 million deal and hurts his back and things. A lot of people noticed that maybe he doesn't have the same type of explosiveness that he had before when he first came into the league. And then the contract comes up for Alonzo Morning and George Shin.

0:47:24 - (Harold Kaufman): At the time, the offer to Alonso would have made him the highest paid player in the league. And both guys have egos at all, and they wanted to get paid. But I don't think there was a resentment. They understand that when one guy gets paid, it's good, probably for everybody in the long run. Alonso obviously decides to go to Miami, but they. Pat Riley and Miami obviously made an incredible offer and so forth, and so we lose Alonzo to Miami.

0:47:51 - (Harold Kaufman): But then I think there might have been some resentment in here and there, and maybe if we'd have stayed together, who knows what that team could have become and done? But it didn't happen in the heated competition. Again, you see the Heat and the Nixon. Things happen.

0:48:09 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, right.

0:48:10 - (Toby Brooks): I I know. I grew up in rural Midwest Illinois, and you mentioned people from all over the world who don't even know that it's a basketball team, except that the cartoon logo has a basketball in his hands. The Hornets became a nineties cult phenomenon, no doubt about it. And I wasn't alone. From your insider's perspective, being there from the very early days, seeing the cult phenomenon that was the Charlotte Hornets and eventually grandmama and Ljdem, did you know in the midst of that, that you were in the middle of something really unique, or did it take some years and some hindsight for you to recognize it?

0:48:49 - (Harold Kaufman): I think it. I think we noticed it towards the end of the season when we had a ticker tape parade through the city of Charlotte. We're just. It was like we won a championship and we had just won 20 games. You know, there's other signs that come about during the year that give you pause to think about what was really happening. One day we win a game, I forget it might have beaten the Sixers. The Rex Chapman took a charge at the end of the game and they called it on Barkley and we win that game. And again, just the eruption is unmatched.

0:49:29 - (Harold Kaufman): And Tim Kempton, who was reserve role type player, in essence, somewhat fringe NBA player, ends up on the front page of the Charlotte observer in this doctor's gown. And all of a sudden he became doctor K. And that's, and those are the types of things that would happen that would. These guys were like rock stars. And this was one through twelve. And anywhere they went, they'd get standing ovations.

0:50:00 - (Harold Kaufman): Anywhere they went, restaurants would, would want to give them vip treatment. It was just, it was a phenomenon. Things like that would just take place during the season. You're like, wow, this wouldn't happen anywhere else for any of the team. But again, there's only one time where you're going to be the first professional franchise in a market. And that's what we were experiencing really throughout the whole season.

0:50:25 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, play a quick word association game. When I say starter jacket, what do you think of?

0:50:32 - (Harold Kaufman): I think of LJ. I think of Larry Johnson, I think of Alonzo, I think of just the star power that the relevancy that we had guys that, that a company like starter would want to engage with.

0:50:48 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, there's been memes that came out and starter as a company became prevalent. They had deals with all four leagues. But for whatever reason, the Hornets version of that starter jacket has made its way around the world. I mean, Charlotte's not really a winner jacket kind of place. Did you see evidence of that particular brand of Hornets hysteria?

0:51:12 - (Harold Kaufman): I saw that and I just saw everything. I could just remember the attention and detail of the poster boards that were even made and all the kids that would come out. And Hugo the Hornet was as popular as our players. Just things of that nature that you wouldn't, just wouldn't understand. I'll give you another example. The first year at the end of the game, you have post game interviews, right? Start of the game and even games which we didn't win, which was often.

0:51:43 - (Harold Kaufman): I would try to corral a player from the visiting team and we would do our post game interviews at center court. Our play by play broadcaster, Steve Martin, would sit at center court and have the star of the game. And literally four or 5000 people would still be waiting just to listen to the star of the game. After the game, they probably figure we'll let traffic pass along. But thousands of people would stay for these interviews.

0:52:11 - (Harold Kaufman): And we had the Lakers in, and I think it was, they were only coming in once because we were in the Eastern Conference and obviously Lakers out west. And so we lose. And I go back and I asked Magic Johnson, I explained to the players that we do our postgame interviews center court. Would you mind coming out all the time? Players were very cooperative, and magic agreed to come out. A lot of times the players would go in and cool off for a couple minutes, and I don't know whether the coach would speak or whatever, but then I. They'd come out and then I'd escort them out.

0:52:46 - (Harold Kaufman): We had a Hornet t shirt. We gave magic a Hornets t shirt. It's just what we did. We handed out Hornet, anything and everything to anybody. And magic, being the marketing guru and genius, he sits there at center court. He's going to do the interview in front of these thousands of fans who were just adoring and cheering him. They knew we weren't expected to beat the Lakers, right? He puts on the hornets shirt.

0:53:15 - (Harold Kaufman): Here's magic Johnson sitting there with a hornet's t shirt on, and the place is going nuts. And that's just a symbol of respect. And the players knew this. And coaches were famous for saying, guys, pray that this crowd shuts up because it's our only chance. I remember hearing that quote. We used to gather quotes from the opposing players as to what their experience was like or what was the atmosphere like for them, or what was their impression of playing in the Charlotte Coliseum.

0:53:45 - (Harold Kaufman): And they would speak to just this fanaticism and all. And I remember the COVID of our media guide. One year, we raised an attendance banner, the highest attendance in the history of the league at the time. Yeah, I think it got broken by Detroit the year that they played in the Silver Dome. Hello. Yeah.

0:54:06 - (Toby Brooks): Certainly a tribute to you and your team as you're talking. And through my research, all the way from the color scheme to the logo to the fan engagement, things that you did, very innovative for the era. You guys really were early adopters. We see this today, organizations like the Savannah bananas that have taken it to a whole new level. But at that era of NBA basketball, what you were doing was really unprecedented.

0:54:29 - (Harold Kaufman): You know, who we had on our side is we had Carl Scheer. And Carl Scheer not only was the general manager, but he was the guru of entertainment. And what it took to be fan friendly. He was the actual creator of the first Graham Dunk contest in Denver between David Thompson and Doctor J so what, today's all Star Saturday and all that, that began with the vision that Carl had back in the day in Denver when they put on a slam dunk contest. So he was very observant about what we could do to entertain, to make sure that it was as good a production as you can have. You can't control what happens on the court, but you certainly can control all the different elements and everything else that goes into putting on a. You know, we weren't just a basketball game, we were in the entertainment business.

0:55:22 - (Toby Brooks): Right.

0:55:22 - (Harold Kaufman): And he realized that, I think, before a lot of people did.

0:55:26 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, that's great insight. I want to change gears a little bit here. You've been in pro sports for decades. You've seen this predictable path of stars where they're ascending and they're on the rise and they're the hot new thing, and then they peak, they reach new heights, and then inevitably there's a return trajectory. So Larry, you mentioned, signs this record contract in October of 93, and had he not injured his back, who knows what he would have done? But the fact is he did. And in December of that same year, he hurts his back. He ends up being traded. The thought of Larry Johnson being traded away in October of 93, unthinkable, but a few years later, he's dealt to the Knicks. What do you recall about the peak of his career in popularity and then that dimming star power as he tried to return from injury?

0:56:18 - (Harold Kaufman): Yeah, it was gradual, because Larry still, he fought through and he played, and he still would have great moments in big games. And it just. It wasn't to the level of the ultimate superstar that he was on a trajectory to become still, though young and athletic and the high caliber. But when we traded, that was when, that was an introduction between the Alonzo movement and Larry movement, that was the first introduction.

0:56:50 - (Harold Kaufman): Charlotte always felt at first, this is a family. He's one of ours. He's going to be here forever. What it did was it introduced Charlotte as a small market. It went through its first real growing pains, and that was the fact that this is a business at the end of the day. And it was hard for the community to wrap their head around. Larry was unthinkable. What do you mean? He's not going to be a hornet or alonzo.

0:57:16 - (Harold Kaufman): How do you not sign Alonso? He's the franchise and things of that nature. And it was the indoctrination that Charlotte grew up a little bit into. Okay, this is a business. Players are going to come and go, and that's what took place? He went to the knicks. Ironically, we played them in a playoff series. And Larry, with his big l, with the l motion, he came in and he put one on us. And the Knicks beat us in a playoff series that he played against us. But in return, we got Anthony Mason.

0:57:50 - (Harold Kaufman): Bob Bass was our general manager, and he did such a great job of keeping us competitive and trying to get the best return possible for a situation that was very tough and that we knew a player was leaving. But what can we do to still get a return that could keep us at a very competitive level? And I think did a masterful job over the years and, and keeping that because we had a number of 50 plus win teams, post Larry and post Alonso.

0:58:21 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

0:58:22 - (Toby Brooks): So Larry goes to the Knicks in 96, and then you end up in New York in 2014. Did you follow his career at all? You mentioned that you all played against them, but once you got to the Big Apple, did you encounter Knicks fans who knew of your years together?

0:58:38 - (Harold Kaufman): No, because I was in a completely different arena. I was in baseball, so I was with the Mets. And obviously, I had a number of connections in the media and still do to this day, of a lot of the NBA pundits and media that cover, that know the history of those years. And I know Larry, I think, is still doing some ambassador type role with the Knicks, which is great. So he still, he'll live forever in the memories of that classic four point play, and he basically carried them, a big part of them, making that run to the finals that one season as well, ended up really establishing himself in New York and ending up having a great career.

0:59:21 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, and famously not the explosive post player down low, but an outside threat. He really transformed his game after the injury. So it's really how that fits in with my show, because he started on a trajectory to be one thing, injury kind of derailed that, but he didn't let it keep him from still being a successful NBA player.

0:59:42 - (Harold Kaufman): A testament to him that he actually reinvented himself, in a sense. And you're right, his outside shot was much more consistent later in his career than early in his career. That's because of the work that he put in. But he would, he just had such a variety. He found ways to score. You almost can't define them in one way, except that Larry Johnson could put the ball in the basket drop.

1:00:15 - (Toby Brooks): Well, you're an SMU alum. And famously, Larry signed with SMU out of high school. And I don't know how the years aligned, but any memories you have of this McDonald's all American out of Skyline High School, going to SMU, and then suddenly Odessa College.

1:00:30 - (Harold Kaufman): I know I wasn't, you know, affiliated really with the athletics department or any part of that. I watch, obviously, you hear on the news and all, and that I think Snu did not accept Larry from an academic standpoint, which is very ironic, right, for what SNU endorsed experience in the late eighties with the death penalty eventually. But you just, at the time, I remember when there was talk about him coming to SNU, it would have put SNU on a new level, obviously. And instead he goes to the destiny, then he goes to UNLV. And then all you could do is visualize, wow, what if that was playing at Moody Coliseum and pliss, but he went on to UNLV and coach shark, and those guys had a run for the ages, those couple years. But who knows what it would have been like had he finished in Dallas, for sure.

1:01:23 - (Toby Brooks): Last one. What would you say is your most vivid or cherished Larry Johnson memory?

1:01:29 - (Harold Kaufman): Gosh, much cherished Larry Johnson memory. I think just the fact that just the memory of when you'd go with him through an appearance, how he was just so revered. And my memory is just that smile he had, the gold tooth, which was noted, and just their smile and how people would react to him, I think that's just the greatest memory in that. I think he understood that when somebody would encounter him, that it was like the biggest moment that they've had. And he would take the time and especially with kids.

1:02:10 - (Harold Kaufman): And he had a good heart. Absolutely. He really did. He had a good heart. And there was a really nice, sensitive side to him. You wouldn't always know, but I think just that that smile and how contagious it was is what you always visualize.

1:02:27 - (Toby Brooks): Harold, thank you so much for your time today. It's really been a pleasure. And I appreciate your insights into this really unique season in NBA and Charlotte history.

1:02:38 - (Harold Kaufman): No, thank you, Toby. I enjoyed it. And of course, wishing you all the best.

1:02:43 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

1:02:44 - (Toby Brooks): If folks want to follow your work, where can I point them?

1:02:48 - (Harold Kaufman): Go to tonyfaypr.com. you see a lot of our different clients and it gives you a little depth. And right now I also work with David Meter, who is an agent who has a sports meter and do all the pr and marketing for all of his clients. And we have a number of major leaguers as well. I transition. I'm living full time in the Florida, so my wife and I enjoy it down here. And it's our happy place.

1:03:15 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, for sure.

1:03:16 - (Toby Brooks): Awesome. Thanks so much.

1:03:18 - (Harold Kaufman): I'm Harold Kaufman and I am undone.

1:03:22 - (Toby Brooks): I'm thankful to Harold for dropping in today, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation. For more info on today's episode, be sure to check it out on the web. Simply go to undonepodcast.com ep 92 to see the notes, links, and images related to today's guest, Harold Kaufman. Next time on the becoming undone docuseries, the making and remaking of Larry Johnson. I talk about the famous pony Express recruiting scandal that rocked all of college athletics, most specifically southern Methodist university in Dallas, and how that event likely impacted where Larry would end up going to college and potentially impact his life forever.

1:04:01 - (Toby Brooks): And I catch up with Larry's high school coach, Texas Basketball hall of Famer, and longtime Dallas Skyline head coach JD Mayo. That and more on becoming undone. Oh, and by the way, I should have trusted those instincts. That site I told you about earlier in the episode where I thought I'd found that dreamy new Charlotte Hornet starter jacket? Yeah, it suddenly disappeared from the web today. It was, in fact, a scam.

1:04:27 - (Toby Brooks): I had to cancel my credit card and submit a fraud claim. Oh joy. You know, I know there are great stories out there to be told and I'm always on the lookout. So if you or someone you know has a story that we can all be inspired by, tell me about it. Surf on over to undonepodcast.com. comma, click the contact tab in the top menu and drop me a note. Becoming Undone is a nitro hype creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks.

1:04:59 - (Toby Brooks): Tell a friend about the show and follow along on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn at Becoming undone Pod and follow me Obij Brooks on X Instagram and TikTok. Check out my link tree at Linktr ee Tobyjbrooks listen, subscribe and leave me a review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio radio, or wherever you get your podcasts. Remember, can't beat what you can't catch.

1:05:27 - (Harold Kaufman): Okay, granny, one on one, me and you. That was a lucky shot, grandma.

1:05:35 - (Toby Brooks): I'll see you again next Thursday. Until then, keep getting better.