EP95: THE MAKING (and re-making) OF LARRY JOHNSON PART 4 with Dennis Helms, Former Odessa College Head Coach and NJCAA Hall of Famer

About the Guest

Dennis Helms is a distinguished figure in the world of basketball coaching, having served as the head coach at Odessa College from 1986 to 1996. A member of both the NJCAA Basketball Hall of Fame and the Upper Iowa Athletics Hall of Fame, Helms has coached ten players who went on to play in the NBA. Among these notable athletes is Larry Johnson, the most successful of his protégés. Helms's contributions to the sport and his impact on his players' careers have left a lasting legacy in the realm of junior college basketball.

Episode Summary

In this fun episode of "Becoming UnDone," host Toby Brooks delves into the intertwined stories of college football controversies and the illustrious career of Larry Johnson, with insights from his former coach, Dennis Helms. The episode opens with a critical look at how narratives of villainy, featuring figures like Craig James, have shaped sports history and altered the futures of programs and players. Brooks sets the stage with retellings of significant events involving SMU's scandalous past and its ripple effects on college basketball recruitment, leading to the fascinating detour in Larry Johnson’s path.

Brooks meticulously unravels the tale of how Craig James's involvement at SMU and Texas Tech drew widespread condemnation and comparisons to iconic villains from fiction. Through detailed storytelling, listeners discover how James's actions in the 1980s influenced Larry Johnson's forced detour from SMU to Odessa College. The second half of the episode pivots to an interview with Dennis Helms, who shares his experiences coaching Johnson at Odessa College. Helms highlights Johnson's extraordinary work ethic, academic strides, and significant contributions on and off the basketball court—a testament to how initial setbacks can fuel later triumphs.

Key Takeaways

• The Villainy Narrative: The episode explores how figures like Craig James have been portrayed as villains in college sports, drawing parallels to fictional antagonists.
• Impact on Larry Johnson: Insight into how SMU’s scandal and tightened academic scrutiny led to Larry Johnson’s unexpected journey through junior college before achieving stardom at UNLV.
• Coach Dennis Helms’s Perspective: Coach Helms recalls Johnson’s relentless work ethic and leadership at Odessa College, underscoring his academic and athletic development.
• Larry Johnson’s Legacy: Highlighting Johnson’s continued impact, including philanthropic efforts such as the Larry Johnson Recreation Center, and his personal generosity and concern for those who supported him.
• Educational Journey: Johnson’s advancement from a 7th to a 12th-grade reading level in a year demonstrates the critical role of academic support in athletes’ lives.

Notable Quotes:

1. Lincoln Riley: "He has an unbelievable sense of entitlement because of who his father is, one that hurts himself and the people around him."
2. Toby Brooks: “Leach chose silence in a three-way standoff between James, Leach, and Hance.”
3. Dennis Helms: "He was like a show in himself. When coaches and different people would come in and watch us, we did outdoor conditioning."

Transcript

0:00:03 - (Toby Brooks): This is becoming undone.

0:00:09 - (Toby Brooks): Welcome back to another episode of Becoming Undone, the podcast where we examine the lives of high achievers and learn about how sometimes things have to fall apart before they can come together. First things first. If you've been following along, you probably know this by now. But if you're new, a simple request. Stay with me. I promise this entire episode really is about Larry Johnson. Eventually. This one, maybe more than last time, is a little bit more about Larry Johnson.

0:00:37 - (Toby Brooks): It might take me a minute to get there, but I swear I will so stick around. Every story needs a villain. The thing is, hero and villain are usually distinctions that are highly dependent on your point of view. Lately, I've seen an entire genre of villain backstory work like wicked, maleficent, joker, or cruella. One of my favorites is the ballad of songbirds and snakes, which takes us on a prequel journey to see the diabolical Hunger games bad Guy Coriolanus snow as a goal driven but not yet irredeemable teen.

0:01:34 - (Toby Brooks): But from his perspective, he isn't wrong. He's a hero in his own home, doing what needs to be done to save his family from poverty and get ahead in the world, but to an objective third party, namely us, the viewers or readers. He's a sinister snake who will lie, cheat, steal, and murder in order to get his way. Or think about the Marvel Cinematic universe. Consider Loki, Thors adopted brother, the so called God of mischief, who is responsible for one of my favorite quotes ever in a movie where he describes the reason for his deceit as a, quote, burden of glorious purpose.

0:02:15 - (Toby Brooks): I love the idea that we have a job to do and a role to play, and when that is big, sometimes it can seem like a really big price to pay. Like a burden. Loki seems to embrace the notion of fulfilling his purpose by any possible means, and that leads him to nearly destroy the multiverse in the process. Or think about back to the future. A resourceful and driven Biff Tannen manages to turn a sports almanac that supposedly has every major sports score from 1950 to 2000 in a 30 or 40 page magazine, no less, into an alternate reality where the world sucks hard for almost everyone except himself, where he's become a gambling wizard who owns the whole town, including his massive casino and a, let's say, heavily augmented but now alcoholic Lorraine.

0:03:08 - (Toby Brooks): When we see stories like this, we see villains literally altering time and the reality everyone else experiences. They can impact the heroes in unexpected ways, and while in the process they might see themselves as the protagonists in their own story, we onlookers can see them for what they are. The heels, the bad guys, the enemies of good. So I'm gonna be brave here. I'm gonna plant my flag on what I'd guess is an unexamined hill.

0:03:39 - (Toby Brooks): If Loki is a key villain in the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Biff Tannen is the key bad guy in the back to the future cinematic universe. Craig James is the villain in the NCAA cinematic universe. That's right, I said it. Craigdin James failed bid for Texas Senate in 2012 Craig James ESPN commentator Craig James, former New England Patriot and USFL Washington federal Craig James Smu, pony Express and NCAA death penalty Craig James that guy.

0:04:16 - (Toby Brooks): But I'll be honest, he was before my time. I didn't know much about that while it was happening. My first introduction to Craig James was through his son, Adam James. After my family and I moved to Lubbock 14 years ago on one of the most cataclysmic days in the history of the south plains of West Texas. Exactly one day after we got to Lubbock, we had a massive storm of the century. I'm making little air quotes with my fingers level freezing rainstorm that quite literally froze the city down to a standstill.

0:04:50 - (Toby Brooks): Everything came to a halt on the roads that were impassable, and then it felt like everything came to a figurative halt when legendary Texas Tech football coach Mike Leach was suspended. Two days later, he was fired, and Craig James was right in the middle of it, like villains usually are. The story goes something like this. James son, Adam was a lightly recruited receiver who was given what would appear to be his only d one offer to come play for Leitch.

0:05:21 - (Toby Brooks): Texas Tech Leitch is a revered figure in college football, even to this day, for his offensive innovation, his fantastic press conferences, and his love of oddball discussion topics like favorite Halloween candy or his in depth historical knowledge of pirates, leading to his nickname as simply the Pirate. James was a source of lots of problems almost from the jump, and ultimately, one situation in particular led to Leitch being fired for cause on December 30, 2009, just days before the Red Raiders Alamo bowl matchup against Michigan State.

0:05:59 - (Toby Brooks): According to a 2009 Bleacher report article that dropped just days after the initial story broke, a number of prominent Texas Tech coaches and teammates came forward in defense of coach Leitch. More than a dozen accounts provided first hand info about James being an entitled, spoiled brat that clearly thought his status as Craig James Kid made him above the law. Now, keep in mind, these are not my words.

0:06:25 - (Toby Brooks): These are quotes I found straight out of the Internet. Multiple sources, legendary tech quarterback Graham Harrell tells the tale of how James, as a freshman before he'd even joined the football team, briefly played baseball for the Red Raiders. Ill give it to you, in Harrells words, after a baseball game in which he felt like he did not get enough playing time but the team still won 21, he came into the locker room after the game and pouted and threw a big fit, according to another player on the baseball team.

0:06:57 - (Toby Brooks): A few weeks later, in the middle of the season, he just stopped showing up to practices or games and quit because he wasnt happy with how he was being treated. His toxic attitude and poor work ethic seemed to be no better on the football team, where now USC head coach Lincoln Riley, then an inside receivers coach on Leitch's staff, provided a scathing message about James in support of Leitch. Riley says he should be grateful for the opportunity that was given to him here that was not offered at any other division one football program.

0:07:30 - (Toby Brooks): He has an unbelievable sense of entitlement because of who his father is, one that hurts himself and the people around him. According to a different bleacher report article, also published on the day of Leitch's firing, James had been diagnosed with a concussion, and a disagreement between player and coach is where things flew off the tracks. Author Daniel Muth writes. We were told that Adam James, son of ESPN's Craig James, was forced into a shed to stand hours on end after showing up to practice.

0:08:01 - (Toby Brooks): That shed turned out to be an equipment room, complete with an ice maker, fan, ventilation and exercise equipment. We were told that Adam James, son of ESPN's Craig James, was next confined in an electrical closet under guard. The quote unquote electrical closet turned out to be a spacious press room with video monitors and stationary bikes, and the guard turned out to be athletic trainers who were checking on his head injury.

0:08:27 - (Toby Brooks): So we already know that Adam James, son of ESPN's Craig James, was exaggerating the circumstances to the point of nearly straight up lies. So the next question one might reasonably ask is, why was he told to go there? Well, Adam James, son of ESPN's Craig James, suffered a mild concussion not so long ago that had him sidelined but was recently cleared by his own doctor to play. Instead, he showed up to practice wearing sunglasses, presumably because of the concussion he'd been cleared from, and offered his own diagnosis to coach Mike Leitch, that being that he was not feeling up to practice and instead would rest on the sidelines in his sunglasses while the rest of the team worked their tails off.

0:09:14 - (Toby Brooks): End quote. Two things to note here the disdain from muth and the behavior of one Adam James. Secondly, the repeated reminder that above all else, Adams most irredeemable quality, or perhaps the source of his emotional pathos, was dear old dad Craig James villain. But lets not get ahead of ourselves here. As beloved by many as Leitch was, he had his detractors too. There are two sides to every story.

0:09:45 - (Toby Brooks): An ESPN piece that was published on December 30, 2009, had quotes from several Texas Tech players on the roster then who supported the move. Defensive lineman Chris Perry went on record saying, I have no complaints about this decision. Leitch put Adam in a shed like an animal. Like an animal in a cage. That was bull you call other players. I think it was a good decision. James insisted he was locked in a shed and in a YouTube video that he shared for his social media followers, presumably also his dad.

0:10:18 - (Toby Brooks): The deplorable conditions to which coach Leitch had sentenced him were available to be seen. While the video does not appear to still be posted on James social media, the Internet is undefeated and it lives on in perpetuity. Its description also lives on in an SB Nation article released on the day of the firing. Ill remind you to consider the fact that it was posted by Adam, which means most likely these are his words in the description.

0:10:47 - (Toby Brooks): Quote this video was taken by Adam James, a player on the Texas Tech Red Raider football team, on Saturday, December 19, after being confined by coach Mike Leitch in an electrical closet off the press room at Jones at and T Stadium. James was suffering from a concussion received during an earlier scrimmage game. James was ordered to stand in the darkness until released several hours later. James momentarily turned on a light to record his surroundings with his cell phone.

0:11:20 - (Toby Brooks): Okay, okay, the optics here are bad, but are they as bad as they were portrayed? Most likely not. Maybe they were. Who knows? It wasn't necessarily the act of sentencing a player to a dark room that cost Leech's job. Instead, it was Leitch's staunch refusal to apologize or otherwise make so much as an attempt at reconciliation that probably ultimately led university officials to relieve him of duty.

0:11:50 - (Toby Brooks): Officially, Leitch was fired for cause as a result of insubordination. Former guest on this show in episode 84, Kent Hance was tech chancellor at the time, and Hance went on record as saying, quote, I like him and I wanted him to be my coach, but insubordination and this type of activity just cannot be permitted. End quote. The insubordination in question came when Leitch refused to comply with Hance's orders to make the situation go away.

0:12:18 - (Toby Brooks): As reported in the 2013 book the System, Glory and Scandal in big time college football, authors Jeff Benedict and Armin Katayn reported that Hance's orders were threefold. First, pay a fine up to 60 grandd. Two, apologize to the James family personally, and three, sign a statement saying he would never punish a player under a doctor's care. At the center of the three pronged order was an insistence from Hance for leach to apologize to the James family personally directly.

0:12:54 - (Toby Brooks): As information would later support, Hance was being leaned on heavily. Bye. You guessed it. Craig James villain. Now I wont eat James lunch for this one. Im a dad. If I feel like my kids are getting mistreated I will run to their rescue. Less so now that theyre older. But still, admittedly those fatherly instincts are hard to suppress. Papa Craig had already contacted Hance directly, and in an email he wrote, mike Leach's actions with Adam were inhumane and dangerous, designed to inflict punishment and create great mental anguish.

0:13:37 - (Toby Brooks): Action must be taken to not only ensure the safety of Adam, but to protect his teammates from this and other forms of abuse coach Leitch inflicts on his players. Kent, I ask you and the board members this have each of you seen the shed and electrical closet Adam was confined to? I'd recommend each of you visit the places. Walk in them. Turn the lights off. Now imagine standing there for 3 hours in the cold without being allowed to sit down or lean against the wall.

0:14:07 - (Toby Brooks): This story will become public at some point, and you can count on the fact that some television cameras will show this picture. Now, two things to point out. First, the cojones Craig has in writing an email to the chancellor of a 40,000 plus student flagship university where he nonchalantly calls him by first name, and secondly, the thinly veiled threat to do as he says or face the wrath. But Leitch didn't do what he said.

0:14:43 - (Toby Brooks): He also didn't do what Hance said, and he did face that wrath. Leitch flatly refused to comply with any of the three demands, insisting he did nothing wrong. You know, you gotta respect that stance too. Keep your job by saying sorry or be fired, Leitch chose silence in a three way standoff between James, Leitch, and Hance. I'm picturing the meme with the three spider men with their finger guns pointed at one another.

0:15:13 - (Toby Brooks): These are some very large personalities with no shortage of confidence and with perceptions of power. In this circumstance, leach lost. He left Lubbock. I had been in town all of a week when this crisis exploded. First, there was an unheard of storm of the century freezing rain event the day after we rolled into town. Two days after that, one of the most famous and beloved Texas Tech coaches of all time was fired.

0:15:40 - (Toby Brooks): All hell was breaking loose on the South Plains. And while I won't go so far as to blame Craig James for the weather, most of Lubbock had no problems blaming him and his equally dastardly son for the firing villains. I say what has followed in Lubbock has been 14 years of mostly football misery. Tommy Tuberville came to town with big talk and absolutely no action to back it up. After underperforming and beginning to feel the heat in Lubbock, he took a job at Cincinnati at the time, a lateral move at best.

0:16:17 - (Toby Brooks): Less than three years after the Leach ordeal, where Tuberville famously abandoned recruits at a recruiting dinner at a local steakhouse without so much as saying goodbye, he just left. His 2017 record is misleading. It included a bunch of lower division schedule padding his nine and 17 mark and big twelve play tells the real story. In my first few years in Lubbock, I don't recall tech winning many games after October under Tuberville.

0:16:47 - (Toby Brooks): Then came the cliff Kingsbury era. Holy cow, what a ride. In six seasons as head coach, Kingsbury compiled an equally unimpressive 35 and 40 overall record while having one of arguably the greatest quarterbacks to ever play college football on the roster for three years in Pat Mahomes. Oh yeah, and never mind the fact that Kingsbury also had Baker Mayfield on the roster, too, who transferred to Oklahoma and won the Heisman offensively under Kingsbury, Tech was incredible.

0:17:21 - (Toby Brooks): Defensively under Kingsbury, Tech was also incredible, but not in a good way. Somehow, Kingsbury got fired from Tech and then was named offensive coordinator at USC before being named head coach of the NFLS Arizona Cardinals before coaching his first game in LA. Ive always said Cliff could fall up three flights of stairs, and this whole situation proved it. And now techs on its third coach, Joey Maguire since the Leach James deal.

0:17:51 - (Toby Brooks): Sadly, coach Leitch passed away in 2022 after complications from a heart condition. Adam James is now CEO of James Land and development, a company his dad apparently gave him or he co founded with Craig, depending on who you ask. But long story short, Texas Tech football has never been the same. A visit to the James Land and development site convicted me a little bit that maybe I've been too hard on Craig all these years.

0:18:16 - (Toby Brooks): After all, I only know part of the story, the part I've been given. I'd like to think that I know exactly what I would have done as an athletic trainer and as a sports medicine provider in that position. And the site's listing of JLD's core values of trust, reliability, innovation, character, and others first sure sounds pretty good. But every story needs a villain. And for many, tech football's woes that continue to this day are because Craig James played the role of Biff Tannen, and the Red Raiders are living under what has become painfully familiar to tech fans as the curse of the pirate.

0:18:55 - (Toby Brooks): I guess now is as good a time as any to mention. My name is Toby Brooks. I'm a professor, a speaker, an author, and a forever student, and this is becoming undone, the podcast where we look at how sometimes things have to fall apart before they fall into place. And this week we are continuing our deep dive into the story of former NCAA champion first overall draft pick and 1992 NBA Rookie of the year Larry Johnson.

0:19:20 - (Toby Brooks): So this begs the question, what on earth does all of this Craig James talk have to do with Larry Johnson? I am so glad you asked. Craig James was a heavily recruited running back out of Stratford High School in the Houston area in the late seventies. I was four years old when he signed with Southern Methodist University in Dallas in 1979, where he played until 1982. While I was probably sliding in my sock feet on my parents linoleum floor, Craig was racking up yards and winning all conference awards for the Mustangs in the old Southwest Conference.

0:19:54 - (Toby Brooks): SMU, along with many or even most of the other Southwest Conference schools, had come under scrutiny for shady recruiting practices and a reckless abandon for NCAA rules. However, it was the speed and the magnitude of SMU's change of fate that raised alarm bells on their way to unprecedented success on the football field. While James was a heavily recruited running back, fellow classmate and signee Eric Dickerson was the parade magazine running back of the year.

0:20:23 - (Toby Brooks): In 1979, when both of them signed along with a number of other blue chip recruits, suspicions began circulating that SMU boosters were paying players and offering big incentives to family members like cars, houses and cash in exchange for signings. The subject of an incredibly well done ESPN 30 for 30 documentary titled the Pony Smus prolific Rise was orchestrated by head coach Ron Meyer in 1975. Compared to most other D one football programs, SMU was private and tiny.

0:20:59 - (Toby Brooks): With only around 9000 students, the Mustangs had been mediocre in football for decades. In 1979, when Dickerson and James arrived on campus, the school had 21 losing seasons out of their last 30, including the last four in a row. Yet somehow that same program managed to land some of the most heralded recruits in the nation. Dickerson has admitted it. He received a brand new gold Pontiac Trans Am and stated he would typically receive cash payments of around $1,000 a month, which, adjusted for inflation, would be around 4600.

0:21:37 - (Toby Brooks): Today, in our modern nil era, that seems like nothing. But when the rules were clear that college athletes were not to be paid, putting someone like Dickerson on the modern equivalent of a $50,000 a year salary was clearly not in line with the rules. On the other hand, James has historically denied any kind of wrongdoing. However, in 2012, he admitted to having received what he called an insignificant amount of improper gifts while playing at SMU.

0:22:09 - (Toby Brooks): Sure, he has always denied that improper financial inducements had anything to do with his decision to attend SMU, citing instead his relationship with his girlfriend and eventual wife, Marilyn, who was already a freshman there, as his primary motivation. However, in light of all the other evidence swirling around the SMU program, that explanation seems, let's just say, potentially incomplete. Whether James was involved or not, all that cheating that has been admitted from within and around the SMU program in the early 1980s resulted in an immediate change of fortune.

0:22:48 - (Toby Brooks): According to a 2022 article published in the Atlantic, SMU finished in the top twelve in four consecutive seasons from 81 to 84, with a combined record of 41 five and one. Though they fell short in the polls, SMU claimed shared national titles in 81 and 82. But those kind of payments to players led to the NCAA's death penalty in 1987, the harshest punishment ever delivered to a college football program, where it was shut down, setting the team back for decades.

0:23:24 - (Toby Brooks): So SMUs program goes from inconsequential, also ran for 30 or 40 years to a major player in the hunt for national titles. Overnight, blue chip recruits sign and lead the team to unprecedented success. The NCAA cracks down and things continue to get worse until ultimately there is no other choice. Shut it down completely. Kill the SMU football program. To date, it is the only time in history that the NCAA has completely shuttered a sports team.

0:24:00 - (Toby Brooks): Coaches are fired. Players are forced to transfer or play elsewhere, or finish their degrees at SMU as non players. There's no longer a football team to play for. Administration that had either been ignorant, indifferent, complicit, or some combination thereof in this scandal were also fired. The massive scandal is a fascinating piece of sports tragedy and history, but the consequences went well beyond the football field.

0:24:28 - (Toby Brooks): In the midst of the worst of it, on November 19, 1986, 200 SMU professors submitted a petition to the schools board of governors calling for the end of quasi professional athletics at the school. The petition called for SMU to do away with all athletic scholarships. Board chairman Bill Clements, who had regained his seat as Texas governor two weeks earlier, announced that the school would tighten its admission standards for all athletes and they would drop the football program entirely if necessary to restore the school's integrity.

0:25:04 - (Toby Brooks): Two years later, the program was allowed to start back up. Now, under the leadership of former NFL legend Forrest Gregg. In 1989, the now restarted mustangs were following all the rules, struggling once again to recruit, limited to just 45 scholarships instead of the normal allotment of 95, and they finished an abysmal two and nine. Not long after the scandal broke, SMU president L. Donald Shields resigned for health reasons. Officially, he was 50 and cited diabetes.

0:25:38 - (Toby Brooks): Best I could tell, he was still vibrant and active as late as 2012, well into his seventies, when Cal State Fullerton honored him for work hed done there. Prior to his tenure at SMU, Shields was replaced by A. Kenneth Pye, a former law school dean and chancellor from Duke. According to reports, the university he inherited at the time was in total disarray in the wake of the football scandalous and was struggling with a budget deficit and a national reputation for mediocre academics.

0:26:09 - (Toby Brooks): PIs first order of business was to put together a task force, which then developed a proposal and launched new guidelines which dramatically tightened SMus admission standards and academic expectations for incoming students. But tobi again, what does any of this have to do with Larry Johnson? About that same time, Dallas Skyline Sr. High school basketball player of the year McDonald's All American Larry Johnson had already committed to stay in town and play for coach Dave Bliss at SMU.

0:26:43 - (Toby Brooks): Now, if you aren't familiar with some of the stuff bliss has been caught up in, you might want to google it or you may be not. Either way, Johnson signed but was an academic non qualifier. NCAA rules at the time said a player needed at least 700 on the SAT in order to play d one basketball. Score less than that and you had three options. First, retake the test and score better than 702. Go to a junior college for at least one year before transferring to a larger school or three, sit out entirely.

0:27:16 - (Toby Brooks): Larry chose option one. Complicating matters, though, was that when Larry retook the test, he got above a 700 the second time, meaning he would be eligible to play. However, the score was called into question. The big jump between the first and second attempts had resulted in it being flagged and the new sheriff in town. President PI shipped in from Duke Law School to put SMU, back on solid academic footing, decided he was going to refuse to accept the new score.

0:27:48 - (Toby Brooks): He opted personally to deny Larry admission. According to reports at the time, his admission had been delayed by the university because of an unusually large increase in his SAT score. When he took the admissions test a second time, Johnson's second SAT score was canceled by ETS, the service which administers the test. ETS officials asked Johnson to take a polygraph and take the test again, but he refused.

0:28:16 - (Toby Brooks): Instead, Johnson was told in a meeting that he would not be admitted to SMU, to which he promptly decided to join a friend at Odessa College and pursue his dreams beginning at a junior college. So this begs the question, would a school like SMU, now infamous for its complete disregard of the rules and regulations of college sports to such an extreme that the NCAA would completely close down one of its programs just months before that same SMU?

0:28:47 - (Toby Brooks): Would they have taken the time to scrutinize Larry's test scores before unlikely. Countless acts of fraud, broken laws and ignored rules were not merely allowed but encouraged for the sake of a football team up until the death penalty in 1987. But once that happened, the new admin knew they were under the microscope. In their first big test, they ruled to dig in their heels and to deny the best basketball recruit in the nation admission due to nagging academic concerns.

0:29:20 - (Toby Brooks): I'd argue that had Larry been one year younger, he probably would have admitted with open arms as a mustang, it happened on the football team. But in 1987? Nope. So was Larrys denied admission to SMU Craig James fault? Not really. Was Mike leitches firing at Texas Tech Craig James fault? Hard to say, but just because no one ever noticed Biff Tannen holding that ridiculously too thin gray sports Almanac doesnt mean he wasnt responsible for altering the entire back to the futures universe for all the characters.

0:29:59 - (Toby Brooks): But we know he did because that's what villains do. So if you're listening, Craig, no one's saying it's your fault. But that doesn't mean we don't still have some questions. Joining me today is Larry Johnson's first college basketball coach, Dennis Helms, who served as the head coach at Odessa College from 1986 to 1996. He's been inducted into both the NJCAA Basketball hall of Fame as well as the upper Iowa Athletics hall of Fame, where he graduated in 1969 and was team MVP as a senior.

0:30:35 - (Toby Brooks): He's coached ten players who went on to play in the NBA, the most successful and well known of whom was undoubtedly Larry Johnson.

0:30:43 - (Dennis Helms): Coach Helms, thanks for joining me today.

0:30:46 - (Toby Brooks): You're welcome.

0:30:47 - (Dennis Helms): So my show is based around the idea that failures and setbacks that might have stop someone else's pursuit of success, they don't stop high achievers. And Larry was certainly an example of that with his kind of detour, initially SMU and then going to Odessa college. So I guess, talk me through how you first discovered him and maybe how he ended up as a part of your program.

0:31:15 - (Toby Brooks): Well, really, the person that was behind us getting him most was my assistant, Fletcher Cochrane. He kept saying that Laria end up at Odessa, he'll end up at Odessa, because he was kind of following the SAT situation or the ACt. Larry's test scores okay with that, and he just kept following it. And then Larry one day got off an airplane, said he was going to go to Odessa after he had been over in the junior world games with that.

0:31:53 - (Toby Brooks): But then it became kind of a recruiting process that Fletcher was in Dallas for eleven straight days, and then I joined him. Okay. The last nine days until Larry finally ended up committing to go to Odessa.

0:32:11 - (Dennis Helms): That's great. I know you all had success for and after and during. And so he was a big part of that. When he was initially committing to SMU, were you involved in that process, or was it primarily your assistant who was still kind of beating down those doors.

0:32:29 - (Toby Brooks): When he committed to SMU? It was always SMU. There was never any cloud over the situation. The cloud came after when it came as far as we could test score.

0:32:44 - (Dennis Helms): So he arrives on your campus, McDonald's, all american, at Odessa College. Did you see that there was a culture shock or a transition period there where he was adjusting to life in Odessa?

0:32:57 - (Toby Brooks): No, not any different than anyone else. I tried to convince them during our signing that there was like 90 flights from Dallas to Odessa, that he could be able to go back home when he wanted to, and he never did. Hey, once he got there, it was very seldom that he went home. He may as well have been on the end of the world instead of as close as Dallas, because he kind of just hung around campus.

0:33:27 - (Toby Brooks): I know one thing he's known for.

0:33:29 - (Dennis Helms): Is his physical style of play. So he's well known for being a physical, athletic presence. He was an explosive athlete. And coach Mayo had mentioned that he did some strength and conditioning during high school. Did that continue there at Odessa, or was he really doing things mostly on his own in order to develop physically?

0:33:50 - (Toby Brooks): He was like a show in himself. When coaches and different people would come in and watch us, we did outdoor conditioning. He'd be the first with everything we did in the weight room, he was a monster. And he just continued getting stronger, getting better physical conditioning. He was a leader all the way around as far as he did it now watching.

0:34:21 - (Dennis Helms): Yeah, I think that's been a consistent theme I've heard so far, as he leads by example. So he ends up player of the year as a freshman, wins it again as a sophomore. I have to imagine that in his scenario, with a non qualifier going the junior college route, there had to be tons of division one schools interested in him early. Were you involved at all in the recruitment process and involved in those conversations where ultimately he ended up at URL.

0:34:50 - (Toby Brooks): Oh, I was involved to some degree. I mean, Larry gave me, how would you put it? Hey, to satisfaction. Okay, to hear what I would say or whatever. But the bigger part of the recruiting process took place in Dallas during the summer between his freshman and sophomore year. When he come back after the summer, he told me, coach, I want to go to UNLV. I said, are you sure of this? And he said, yes. And so that's when we put it out there that he had committed to UNLV.

0:35:27 - (Dennis Helms): That team was one for the ages, obviously an historic team, winning national championship, going undefeated the next season. So during his time in Odessa, what stood out the most to you for him as a person? Perhaps.

0:35:46 - (Toby Brooks): You never had to worry about him getting in trouble or anything like that. I mean, he took care of business. We had a great reading department. Researchers here were really good. And that was a weakness with him, because on the Nelson Denny test, he tested out at 7th grade reading level when he came. And, you know, I pushed the issue because I made him read a book when we got on a van to go take a trip first hour, and then the rest was between Larry and the reading teachers.

0:36:18 - (Toby Brooks): And it's phenomenal to go from a 7th grade reading level to a 12th grade reading level in one year.

0:36:26 - (Dennis Helms): So you were kind enough before the interview to send me a graphic that showed that he was so thankful for you putting in that extra effort and helping him academically, that he put you on staff, as it were, as a tutor. So talk me through that process, what that meant to you.

0:36:43 - (Toby Brooks): Well, I was asked by Larry George Bass, what did I want? Well, I knew for us the difficult thing was helping our players graduate, because, okay, once the task tests come in, other schools around the country used that against Texas schools and recruiting, and they even went as far as showing what the math part of the task test would be to potential recruits. So some schools in other states had found task tests somehow with that and to scare the kids from doing this. And if you look, during that period of time, Texas schools thought winning national championships, okay? And it fell down to the fact that getting players because of dealing with that. So I knew that that was what was one of our needs.

0:37:41 - (Toby Brooks): And then a bonus that came in along with this, Larry made it known. And with the help of George Bass, okay, in his contract, shit. We got 60, 63 pair of shoes from the shoe company that Larry was hooked up with. And the first was converse. And then the girls basketball program got 30 free pairs from it. And when he went over to and one, I got a box with 600 shirts on it with all those different and one saying with it. So you really was very important to us with things because, you know, she's our cheap and helped the budget.

0:38:25 - (Toby Brooks): And I'll go a step further. After his mom passed away, who was the most unbelievable mom I ever dealt with in all of my recruiting and everything. She was such a kind, wonderful woman. But when she passed away, at the funeral, Larry said, if you need my help or anything with this, I'll put on a golf tournament for you. So we got the Larry Johnson golf tournament, which paid for our scholarships. Well, it paid our summer scholarships because it was almost impossible for non qualifiers to graduate if you didn't use the summer, okay, for them to get hours to be able to get it done. And sure enough, we had the Larry Johnson golf tournament.

0:39:12 - (Toby Brooks): And it went from all varieties, you know, of people from Nolan Richardson, their spud Webb, Charles Haley, even though he didn't golf, okay, was out there for the Larry Johnson golf tournament. Even had a former Miss Texas his part of it out there.

0:39:32 - (Dennis Helms): Yeah, that's great. In my research, I came across multiple examples of just how charitable he was. And speaking with coach Mayo before he transferred to Skyline and his upbringing was lean. And to hear stories about how generous he was once things started coming his way and that superstardom really hit, I think it's clear that he never really lost sight of those teachings. So even though he's a superstar, by many regards, he's a d one athlete. He's at one point, he's the two time player of the year. But when he's in with you, he's earning those.

0:40:07 - (Dennis Helms): How would you say he was as a leader on the team? Was there any entitlement, or was it just humility and worketh?

0:40:13 - (Toby Brooks): We got into it one time on the floor. He's not shooting, okay. And I'm hammering at him from the sideline. Okay. Of doing it. And he yells to me, I'm trying to make my teammates happy, and I'm screaming back to him, make me happy. Like so many things. Things can get political. I can remember when he was a freshman, when we had the regent meeting, they actually brought some people up in the northern league to run against him for that all american vote. With that, the coach at Ranger goes, let's forget this.

0:41:03 - (Toby Brooks): This is ridiculous. It's Larry Johnson. And that ended that whole scenario with that. But if you talk about a travesty, could you imagine him not being the player of the year out of our region, which that would keep you properly from being first team all american?

0:41:27 - (Dennis Helms): Yeah, absolutely. So there's been a lot said about this detour, and all of us have this wherever things don't necessarily go as we had scripted them, and you can either pout about it or you can make the best of it. How do you think Larry's career in his life were changed because of going to Odessa as opposed to SMu?

0:41:49 - (Toby Brooks): Well, you know, Marcus Liberty was considered the number one player in the country on more polls than Larry coming out of high school. And Marcus Liberty went to Illinois and sat out. And I used to rub this at Larry, okay, there more people are saying that Marcus Liberty is the best player in the country and you're not. And he'd just smile, but I think it meant something to him. I think with his ego, that was important.

0:42:22 - (Toby Brooks): By the end of his freshman year, he was considered the number one freshman in the whole country with that. So he certainly took that on. The assistant athletic director at Fort Worth ISD, Troy Bell, who ended up playing the Creighton every night after practice. Troy wanted to play one on one. Was it Troy? Six, seven? Troy, to play at Creighton, you gotta be a pretty good player. So all Larry, go, I don't want to play in this.

0:42:56 - (Toby Brooks): Oh, come on, Larry, I'm on. And they'd play one on one, and Troy would work his rear end. But when Larry won, Larry would just use his cheeseco body. He was so good at looking like he wasn't doing anything, but he could keep that ball away from you with the strength that he had. Okay, to be able to do it. But if they played 101 on one games, if I told you that, that might be minimal to how many they played.

0:43:32 - (Toby Brooks): And it helped in Larry's development with the t, you know, to put that extra time in. As far as with that, sure.

0:43:40 - (Dennis Helms): Well, no question. There's plenty of talent in the junior college ranks. And back then, even probably more so because of the way the academic standards were written. In your experience seeing him as an 18 or a 19 year old, did you have a vision for the superstar he would become or was he still kind of a work in progress?

0:44:05 - (Toby Brooks): You know, I ended up having ten players. He did play in the NBA. When it was all said and done, he was the only ready made player of that group. Okay. You know, they ranked your top 300 or whatever. None of the other nine work. And even though two of them were, one was drafted 7th and one was drafted 25th in the first round.

0:44:33 - (Toby Brooks): They were.

0:44:34 - (Toby Brooks): But Larry, it was unbelievable. When I saw him before his senior year, I did not think his shot looked very good. You know, he could jump like he couldn't believe. JD, whoever Jd got, did a phenomenal job getting his shot good. By the time senior year came to an end, you know, like defensively, JD had to cover him up. Triangle and t some boxing ones and stuff, which couldn't have Larry pop with that.

0:45:10 - (Toby Brooks): Well, when I got him, that's when he developed defensively and I got after him with it. I don't do this anymore. You change the times. But two times I threw Larry out of practice. Okay? And it was with defense. And this makes me feel good. And then also he's two points, he gets the consoleri. I got invited to the Olympic trials. Okay. Elon, Aaron, compared to all those other ones that were there with their head coaches, because you had to be involved as a coach with the players.

0:45:52 - (Toby Brooks): And fortunately, that was me being that I. So I got to go to Colorado Springs, see David Robinson and all the other great coaches were there with their I. But there was over 70 people at the Olympic trials in 1988. Okay. On the first cut, when they cut it to 48, so many of those all Americans got cut. Larry was there. Okay. It was talked. It was his neighbors, because his ability, etcetera. Now this is crazy what I'm going to tell you, but Larry was sitting there on the ground next to Danny Manning and John Thompson was talking about players going overseas and playing.

0:46:41 - (Toby Brooks): Danny Manning goes, I wouldn't go overseas or I'm not going overseas. So what's Larry do? He doesn't go overseas. Larry would have made the final 20 had he agreed to go overseas. But he chose not key. And so he made it to the Rhonda 48 and not to the Rhonda 20, which certainly was pretty good for somebody of his age with all the other talent that they had there.

0:47:10 - (Toby Brooks): Absolutely.

0:47:11 - (Dennis Helms): I've got maybe one or two left here in the years that have transpired since you've stayed in touch. What stands out the most to you about Larry Johnson? The man, you had him as a player. He's grown. He became a superstar. He's gone on to do all these other things. He's now an ambassador with the Knicks as person. What stands out the most to you?

0:47:36 - (Toby Brooks): How concerned he was when he found out that I had prostate cancer. Okay. Calling me. Okay. And he was satisfied when I told him I was going to be alive with that. That really did. And when you say the man, okay. He put the time in to come out there for the golf tournament. He was still playing then when this happened, one year, I guess it was around 1996, we had the Larry Johnson basketball camp with that, and we had 256 kids there. I mean, that's a phenomenal deal.

0:48:15 - (Toby Brooks): And the guy that ran the sports center, Wayne Turley, said, so many people want to go see him at this camp, so they charged a dollar to come and sit in the stands. They made $600, okay. With people doing it. And then we had a deal later on of honoring him. And I can't remember the exact time frame. It was all the way across the campus in lines that people were coming in, people were going home, getting posters, coming out there, getting things just for Larry to be able to sign with that, I can say it was just phenomenal. Okay.

0:48:59 - (Toby Brooks): The crowds that he could draw. And when we got Larry, it was all Midland. Midland. Midlandhouse. Okay. Larry James, that whole thing.

0:49:10 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

0:49:10 - (Dennis Helms): Certainly for those not familiar with the Ariel, the workmanlike mentality in Odessa, just the blue collar and the tough, the gritty, I think that that matches his personality. But he always did it with a smile, and he always had that. At least the Personas that I saw from afar was, this is a guy that's all in, and he'll do the hard things on the floor, but he's also an ambassador for the game, and he's one that would take time with kids and do those extra things. So, coach, I really appreciate your time.

0:49:42 - (Toby Brooks): Can I add something else, too?

0:49:45 - (Dennis Helms): Yeah, please do.

0:49:46 - (Toby Brooks): And you, you may have this from all the other things. Hereditarily, he got distant from his mom of a back problem. When I got Larry, every tv station came in town. The three of them all came. They wanted to do films. They wanted to do this and that. And this might be hard to describe this, but our back gym had a track of 400 yard track with a quarter mile track up there and around the track. So you didn't fall off into the gym there. Was a carpeted thing on that. So on the side up there, you had that carpet.

0:50:29 - (Toby Brooks): So Kirk Kaiser at channel seven, the sports director, wanted to do some ball handling. So Larry. Larry underhanded the ball so he would be out by the left baseline. He underhanded the ball up off that carpet, and it flew over the top of the backboard, and he went in and dunked it. Okay, so Kurt Kaiser goes, can you do anything else? So not everyone was perfect, because he would stop, but the throw wasn't right.

0:51:00 - (Toby Brooks): But he. But he only tried. Only attempted three things. So, second, when he throws it off, and he dunks a two handed backwards, so Curtis can do anything else. Third one throws it off there, 360. Sit off that carpet over the backboard, catches it, and three hitches with that. All right, so I go see him play in Charlotte, and they're playing San Antonio his first year, and I really thought he played well.

0:51:33 - (Toby Brooks): And so. Oh, coach, I didn't play that well. This and that. And he said, you need to stay. And we play Cleveland. And they had doherty and Nance who could jump. He said, they bother my shots, you know, the way they jump. So he's telling me when I get it, I'm risking a gwin, and I'm gonna go dunk on him. Okay. And I'm thinking, well, I coached her, you know, but, you know, them and this and that. So, anyway, I witnessed this, and this is what he ended up doing, you know, and also on that trip, when I'm at his house, he showed me a part machine that he had a had there, and, oh, there was like a beer thing in it where you could push it. He said, coach, I still haven't had a drink yet.

0:52:21 - (Toby Brooks): So it's already into his first year in the NBA, and he hadn't had a drink yet. So a few years go by, and this back thing comes out. It was to the point. On his one leg, he only had 35 pounds of strength. He had to change everything. This great jumping ability no longer was there, but he understood the game like a point guard. When he was out there, he knew everything that was going on. And this is what enabled him to continue playing when he lost what a lot of people would say was his greatest gift, to be able to jump way he did.

0:53:13 - (Toby Brooks): We had a highlight film where Tony Jackson, his best friend, would go in on a break, okay. And Tony would yell, or Larry would be falling, yo. And then Tony would go in and throw it off the board and then get out of the way. And there Larry would go in on the break and just had an unbelievable, it would be an ESPN number one, that particular dunk that he did with that, but that was gone, you know, but yet it took his stomach getting stuff to get him out of the NBA, you know, with that. And so, you know, that's something special.

0:53:52 - (Toby Brooks): You know, you have Tommy John surgery for baseball players being able to come back. How many super leapers lose that and have to rebuild all their strength but never get back to where they were, okay. And still be an outstanding player in the NBA.

0:54:09 - (Dennis Helms): Yeah.

0:54:09 - (Toby Brooks): And that's the theme of this show.

0:54:11 - (Dennis Helms): I mean, we talked about the academics and how he overcame that. But later in his life, understanding that that greatest asset being taken from him, he didn't just roll over and call it a career. He developed his outside game. He became a really good outside shooter. And not that he was terrible before, but it really allowed him to.

0:54:31 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. He added that thing. Are you aware, Toby, of the Larry Johnson recreation center?

0:54:38 - (Dennis Helms): Coach Mayo mentioned it earlier today, and I was going to do some more research on it, but.

0:54:42 - (Toby Brooks): No, I'll give you some research on it. Okay. The waterfront in the Larry Johnson recreation center. Okay. Is the exact spot where fair park projects. When they did that, they made the water fountain in that gym right where his apartment would have been in. In fair park. You know, he donated a million dollars. Okay. For that, that to take place. But that was the unique thing to me that they, he did it and they put it right there where they said, hey, this is where his apartment was, where he stayed in that project.

0:55:30 - (Toby Brooks): Okay. This is where it's going to be in the gym.

0:55:34 - (Dennis Helms): That's tremendous. Well, coach, thanks so much for joining me. I can't thank you enough for joining me today. It's really been a treat to get to hear your insights to the early part of the superstar wheel grew to know and love in the early and mid nineties. I'm enjoying the show, but the hope is that through these interviews, a book will come from this as well. I really do want to write a book about his life, about all the things he's overcome throughout the course of his career.

0:56:00 - (Toby Brooks): Well, that'd be great. Like I say, not just with Larry, but any of my players who can get more recognition. It certainly makes me happy.

0:56:09 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

0:56:10 - (Dennis Helms): He's certainly been complimentary of you over the years. So I appreciate all the hard work you've done and lots of times in college basketball, you know, the Mike Schesewskis and the. I was at Arizona, so the Lou Olsons of the world they get all depressed. But it's not even any easier at the junior college levels. And in many respects, it's harder. You got it on a tight budget, and you're really impacting players lives, you know, for generations. So thank you so much for the work you've done through years.

0:56:40 - (Toby Brooks): All right, Toby, good luck on your project. I am Dennis Helms, and I am undone.

0:56:49 - (Toby Brooks): For coach Helms. He's proven himself to be a high achiever, and he's still fighting that good fight. I'm thankful for his insights and for dropping in and sharing his perspectives, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation. Still new this week, I want to hear your insights. If you'd be willing to text me what you thought about the episode, or even better, record a voice memo and send it to me, I'll include it in next week's episode.

0:57:11 - (Toby Brooks): Text it to me@tobyndonepodcast.com. and yeah, I checked. You can text to an email address. You can send it in by August 21. I will include it in part five. And speaking of part five, next time on the becoming undone docuseries, the making and remaking of Larry Johnson. I'll talk with longtime UNLV staffer Larry Chin, whose work with Jerry Tarkanian and the running Rebels basketball team led him to cross paths with several unforgettable teams and players, including the 89 and 90 teams that Larry played on.

0:57:42 - (Toby Brooks): I'm also working on an interview with Larry's former agent, George Bass, as well as former converse exec Roger Morningstar. And will we ever get to hear from Larry? Maybe. I'm still working on it. Stick around to find out. I know there are great stories out there to be told, and I'm always on the lookout. So if you or someone you know has a story we can all be inspired by, tell me about it. Surf on over to undonepodcast.com, click the contact tab in the top menu and drop me a note.

0:58:10 - (Toby Brooks): I'll see you again next Thursday. Becoming Undone is a nitro hype creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. Tell a friend about the show and follow along on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Ecomingundonepod and follow me obijbrooks on X Instagram and TikTok. Check out my link tree at Linktr ee. Tobyj Brooks listen, subscribe and please leave me a review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:58:54 - (Toby Brooks): Until next time, everybody, keep getting better.

0:58:59 - (Dennis Helms): I will tell you I tracked down about four other Dennis helms before I.

0:59:03 - (Toby Brooks): Finally got you from George.

0:59:05 - (Dennis Helms): So there's a couple of other guys with your name that are looking forward to hearing your story.

0:59:11 - (Toby Brooks): Oh, good. I'm glad. I just. I made them happy.

0:59:16 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

0:59:17 - (Dennis Helms): Well, thanks so much, coach.

0:59:18 - (Toby Brooks): Appreciate you.

0:59:19 - (Toby Brooks): All right. Yo.