EP99: THE MAKING (and re-making) OF LARRY JOHNSON PART 8: GRANDMAMA with Former Converse Executive Roger Morningstar

About the Guest:

Roger Morningstar is a former Kansas Jayhawk standout and converse executive. He averaged 23 points per game at Dundee High School, was an NJCAA All-American at Olney College, and won two consecutive Big Eight titles with the Kansas Jayhawks. Roger was drafted by the Boston Celtics and had a stint in Europe before joining converse, where he played a critical role in sports marketing and athlete endorsements, including the notable Grandmama campaign with NBA star Larry Johnson.

Episode Summary:

Welcome to the next-to-last episode of the "Making and Remaking of Larry Johnson" series. Host Toby Brooks delves into the fascinating journey of NBA star Larry Johnson and his storied partnership with Converse, which brought the iconic Grandmama campaign to life. This deep dive begins with a nostalgic look at brand loyalties and the cultural significance of athletic footwear during the late '80s and early '90s, setting the stage for an exploration of Larry Johnson's impactful endorsement career.

This episode also features an insightful interview with Roger Morningstar, a former Kansas Jayhawk standout who later became an executive at converse. Roger shares his experiences and stories from his career, shedding light on how Converse landed Larry Johnson amid a competitive market dominated by Nike. He talks about the creative process behind the Grandmama campaign, addressing its legacy and controversial interpretations. This episode not only revisits pivotal moments in sports marketing history but also highlights the enduring appeal and relatable persona of Larry Johnson, making it a rich narrative for fans and marketers alike.

Key Takeaways:

• Nike's Missed Opportunity: Larry Johnson was initially interested in signing with Nike, but they declined, believing he wouldn't have a successful pro career due to his height. This opened the door for Converse to step in.
• Creative Marketing: The notable Grandmama campaign, despite initial skepticism, became an iconic marketing success that showcased Larry Johnson's personality and relatability. 
• Cultural Impact: The clever and humorous nature of the Grandmama campaign left a lasting impression on fans and is still remembered fondly decades later.
• Controversy and Criticism: Some modern critics view the campaign as an instance of "buck breaking," but insiders like Roger Morningstar emphasize the fun and lighthearted intent behind it.
• Legacy of Relationships: Roger Morningstar highlights the enduring relationships formed during his career, including his ongoing connection with Larry Johnson, signifying the deeper personal impacts beyond mere professional achievements.

Notable Quotes:

1. "They said they weren’t going to sign me. Nike flat out told me they didn’t think I would have a good pro career because of my height." – Larry Johnson
2. "They came up with this Grandmama thing… it was, if you have a little sense of humor, it was pretty cool." – Roger Morningstar
3. "Larry Johnson is going to become Grandmama, and she’s just going to dunk on people and jump over people and do all this crazy stuff." – Roger Morningstar
4. "We just get on—as a lot of people do—t

Transcript

0:00:04 - (A): This is becoming undone. 

0:00:07 - (Toby Brooks): Welcome to the penultimate episode of the making and remaking of Larry Johnson. That's fancy talk for next to last. Before we get too deep, as always in these docu series shows, a simple request. Stay with me. I promise this episode really is about Larry Johnson. Eventually it might take me a minute to get there, but I will, I swear. So stick around. You ever think back to the first time you really noticed a brand name? 

0:00:34 - (Toby Brooks): If you're around my age, it might have been Levi's. Or for the ladies, maybe Jordash. Or maybe it was the previously mentioned starter jacket that I talked about at length in part one of this series. But for most, and for sure, for me it was probably footwear, Reebok, adidas or Nike. I was in junior high when the original Nike dunk came out, famously the shoe that looked a lot like the Jordan one, but came in a number of college colorways of blue blood college basketball teams dropped just in time for the 85 86 college basketball season. Although they weren't officially associated with the University of Kentucky, the royal blue and white ones were referred to as skywalkers in reference to the Wildcats high flying power forward Kenny Walker. 

0:01:18 - (Toby Brooks): That blue and white also happened to be the colors of my junior high, the Pope county junior high Pirates. I think I have the details right, but somewhere I had seen a pair in person. I know I saw them on tv on the Jefferson Pilot sports telecast of Kentucky basketball games that used to preempt network television on my local WPSD channel six NBC affiliate. I would lock myself in my room with the Cats playing on my 13 inch color tv while I reenacted the game on my Nerf hoop dunks like Kenny Walker and Melvin Turpin, threes like Dickie Beale and later Rex Chapman. 

0:01:55 - (Toby Brooks): One time somehow, when going in to throw one down, my heel cracked into the wall and I put a baseball sized hole into the sheetrock. 

0:02:03 - (A): Yikes. 

0:02:04 - (Toby Brooks): All the more reason why I needed a pair of shoes, right? Preferably like the ones Kenny Walker wore. Commercialism is a funny thing. I don't remember anyone saying explicitly that I'd be cooler if I wore a certain kind of shoe or repped a particular brand. But that lesson got learned nevertheless. In a song I now connect powerfully with Macklemore and Ryan Lewis's wings. That's wing dollar sign tells the tale in remarkable similarity to how it all went down for me. 

0:02:36 - (C): I was seven years old when I got my first pair, stepped outside and I was like, mama, this air bubble right here is gonna make me fly. I hit that core. And when I jumped, I jumped. I swear, I got so high, I touched the net, mom. I touched the net. This is the best day of my life. 

0:03:03 - (Toby Brooks): I was always one of the tallest kids in my class, and if I remember it right, I was the first in my friend group to touch that coveted net. Also, the bottom of the back port. Eventually the rim. Somehow, I equated shoes like Kenny Walker wore to being able to fly like him. 

0:03:23 - (C): Air maxes were next. That air bubbled. That mesh, the box, the smell, the stuffing, the tread. At school, I was so cool. I knew that I couldn't crease them. My friends couldn't afford them. Four stripes on their adidas. On the court, how was it? The best. But my kicks were like the pros, yo. Stick out my tongue so everyone could see that logo. Like the air flight foot bag was so dope. And then my friend Carlos brother got murdered for his fours. 

0:03:51 - (A): Whoa. 

0:03:55 - (Toby Brooks): I asked my parents if I could have a pair. They were $60, which was twice the cost of the Walmart brand winner's choice that I'd been wearing. My mom said I could buy them if I wanted to, but I'd have to save up to pay the difference. I used birthday and Christmas money set aside for what felt like years to get my first pair. I will never forget that orange box, that white tissue paper, the smell, the sound of flipping that paper up out of the way and then fishing the foot shaped wads of paper out so that I could slip them on as I tried them on at the Kentucky Oaks mall foot locker I got and the disease had begun. 

0:04:39 - (Toby Brooks): Now, I won't bore you with the in depth details, but I can recount pretty much every semester of my life from that point on, with the shoes that I bought for school, basketball, or both. The big Nikes with the block letters across the back. The airflite 89s that I wore to junior high graduation. White with the black trim with the pink splatters. Air solo flight nineties. Air ultraflights. Air Force five s, Air Force 180 Barclays air flight lights. I had a rare splurge for the top of the line Jordan six S in 91. 

0:05:12 - (Toby Brooks): Okay, I guess I will bore you a little bit with the details, but the point is, it was a steady stream of nothing but Nikes. As I was walking around campus at Baylor today, I saw tons of hocus and on clouds, a fair amount of Jordansen and quite a few Air Force ones. But as popular as those retro Nikes are even today, most of the designs I liked best back in the day have been lost to time. Now, looking back, other than Kenny Walker, I can't really tell you why I became a Nike guy. 

0:05:42 - (Toby Brooks): Cause after all, the first player I ever really watched was doctor J. I liked him before I cared about shoes, though, and I only discovered he wore converse recently. At the time, it just didn't register for me. I guess now's as good a time as any to tell you that this is yet another episode of Becoming Undone, where high achievers turn setbacks into comebacks each week. You can join me, Doctor Toby Brooks, as I guide you through the art of transforming unfinished goals into unstoppable growth. 

0:06:12 - (Toby Brooks): One inspiring story at a time and lately we've been discussing the incredible story. A former NBA first overall draft pick, Larry Johnson. But back in my world, in junior high and early high school, Kenny Walker, then Jordan, then Barkley changed everything. That swoosh meant everything to me. If I got to buy one or two back to school shirts, they were spike Lee Jordan joints or flight designs. I wanted Nike practice shorts and sleeveless tees, but I settled for off brand stuff just because I didn't have the cash. 

0:07:08 - (Toby Brooks): The point is, the coolest athletes on the planet for me, war Nike. And I wanted to be like them. Meanwhile, converse had Larry Bird, dork, Magic Johnson, the hated Lakers. There was nothing that could sway me from my air force, my air flights, or my Jordans. Especially converse. Or so I thought. Junior year 1992, converse dropped their aero jam black with purple and teal splatter graphics, this kind of crisscross ankle support system with an embroidered number two react juice, a yellow viscous gel that supposedly squished around in the heel and behind the ankle to provide better support than Nike's tried and true air. 

0:07:53 - (Toby Brooks): Even though they didn't come close to matching my high school's maroon and white uniforms, I had to have them. I bought my first pair of non Nikes because that's what LJ wore. I as it turns out, LJ wanted Nikes, too, but apparently they didnt want him. In a 2023 article on the basketball Network website, Larry recounted being shunned by the shoe giant. I thought I was going to be a Nike man. I sat around all summer waiting for Nike to call. 

0:08:23 - (Toby Brooks): When Nike finally called, they were straight up. They said they werent going to sign me. Nike flat out told me they didnt think I would have a good pro career because of my height. Six six playing power forward, end quote. That's tough. LJ had been awarded player of the year awards in high school, twice in junior college, twice in the NCAA, five straight years. To think he wasn't going to be a successful pro. 

0:08:48 - (Toby Brooks): In hindsight, it's kind of laughable. With that Nike door shut, LJ and his team started entertaining offers from other shoe companies. When Converse came forward with a can't miss deal featuring two of the NBA's biggest stars, he was all in. In that same basketball network article, Larry remembered, converse approached and said, we've got a great idea for a commercial. We're going to put you in a gurney, cover you up. We're going to have Magic Johnson and Larry Bird operating on you. 

0:09:17 - (Toby Brooks): They'll say, oh, we did it. A perfect basketball player. Then they'll say, we've got to name him Larry. Bird says it's got to be Larry. Magic Johnson says it's got to be Johnson. They go back and forth, Larry Johnson, Larry Johnson. Then I raise up off the gurney. It seemed like a magical campaign that was cool, clever, and signified a passing of the torch of sorts, with the old guard of the league recognizing the youth movement of LJ in Charlotte. 

0:09:44 - (Toby Brooks): Unfortunately, it never happened. The accounts vary as to why. According to the COVID story of the inaugural issue of Slam magazine, all the way back in 1994, author Andy Sewer states, the company's two stars, Bird and magic, were aging, and LJ was seen as just the right young stuff. Well, to fill their shoes, Converse's ad agency came up with a terrific plotline. Bird and magic would be mad scientists in a laboratory creating the ultimate basketball player. 

0:10:16 - (Toby Brooks): Bird would say, he'll have my passing ability and so forth, but what should they call this new creature? Bird says, hell have my first name. And magic says, hell have my last name. And at that point, LJ would rise up from the table. Deaf. They shot the commercial. But when Magic announced he had hiv, Converse scrapped the ad. However, later intel suggested that wasn't true at all, and the spot was never shot. 

0:10:47 - (Toby Brooks): Author John Tan wrote, quote, however, grandmama said it wasn't magic's hiv that halted it. Instead, Johnson was later told that Converse was prompted not to push through with it, as one of the NBA legends didn't want to do it. To this day, Johnson, as an LJ, still doesn't know whether it was bird or magic, end quote. Regardless, with the campaign dead in the water, the marketing team had to regroup, and fast. 

0:11:13 - (Toby Brooks): Converse had already sunk a million dollars into the campaign, which LJ had spent to buy his mother, Dorothy, a new house. And had he still had that money, he's been quoted as saying he might have given it back when Converse approached him with their replacement idea, touting their new aeroglide sneakers as being, quote, so light and fast my grandmama could whoop you in them. End quote. The now legendary campaign with the yoked power forward in a dress and a granny hat and glasses was born. 

0:11:42 - (Toby Brooks): Grandmama was everywhere with converse dropping a dozen or so commercials over the years, including cameos by other converse athletes like Kevin Johnson, Bill Laimbeer and others. It's been reported that LJ's mother, Dorotha was initially taken aback by how much grandma looked like his actual late grandmother. He became a pop culture icon, eventually appearing on the hit show Family Matters with Steve Urkel. 

0:12:07 - (A): The Department of Parks and Recreation of our fine Windy city is sponsoring a 212 basketball tournament. What do you get if you win? A season kick is to the Chicago Bulls. Tough break. We win. 

0:12:21 - (Toby Brooks): Steven, this drug should play for the final point. 

0:12:22 - (A): What about me? I'm not hurt. 

0:12:25 - (Toby Brooks): You could be. It's safe to say, as cool as the previous campaign might have been, it most likely would have lacked the staying power that Grandmama has garnered. At the time, it was considered hilarious. The contrast comedy of one of the most athletic, physical and dynamic athletes of an era in full grandma get up was funny all by itself, after all, whose grandma had huge traps and bulging biceps and stood six foot six. 

0:13:00 - (Toby Brooks): However, over time, critics have suggested that the campaign was a classic example of buck breaking, where powerful black men are emasculated and made an example of so that they'll know their place in society. Accounts of mutilation, rape, dismemberment and other torture in front of others during chattel slavery have given way, some would contend, to public humiliation and cancel culture. Today, a recent article published by the NoI research group states, quote, historically, members of the caucasian jewish community have delighted in the destruction of audacity infected black men, period. 

0:13:37 - (Toby Brooks): End quote. And while I wouldn't completely discredit the notion in this case of grandmama, by all accounts from friends and others in the area, me included, we saw it through more trusting and innocent eyes. It was just funny. And it was further evidence of just how approachable and cool and human this new star basketball player in the league really was. Theres a split second scene in the first grandmama spot that I recall watching. That was to me a sample of who I thought LJ really was. 

0:14:11 - (Toby Brooks): In the midst of the contrast and the juxtaposition of LJ, the basketball player in his classic teal Charlotte road uniform, compared to this floral print old lady in a mini pearl style hat. 17 seconds in, we see LJ in the full blown belly laugh. These are my new shoes from converse. They are so light and so fast. My grandmama can whoop you in them. 

0:14:35 - (A): Grandmama, let's go. What? What? What? Moving, clanny. 

0:14:46 - (Toby Brooks): Moving. Not taking himself too seriously. Now, remember, he's the player of the year for five straight years. He's an NCAA national champion. He's the first overall pick in the NBA draft. He's signed, famously, a $19,999,999 contract with the Hornets and a 1 million deal with converse. But he's having fun. Despite his credentials and his capabilities and his accomplishments, he's enjoying the moment. 

0:15:20 - (Toby Brooks): And to young fans like me, it was this youthful exuberance, this love for the game that made him more than just a superstar. He was approachable. He didn't take himself too seriously. And he made us all feel like we were warm and cozy at home. Just like family. Just like a good grandmama would. Joining me today is former Kansas Jayhawk standout and converse executive Roger Morningstar. Roger averaged 23 points a game at Dundee High School, was an NJCAA All American at Allney College and won two consecutive big eight titles with the Kansas Jayhawks. 

0:15:58 - (Toby Brooks): Roger was drafted by the Boston Celtics and played in Europe for a season before joining converse. Roger, thanks so much for joining me today. 

0:16:05 - (A): I'll be glad to do it, man. Glad to do it. 

0:16:08 - (Toby Brooks): Well, I'm glad we were finally able to link up. You're a busy guy these days and I sincerely appreciate your time. And we'll get to Larry Johnson. But your story is equally inspiring. So let's start with you. I shared the facts from your bio. What would you say you're proudest of in your playing or professional career? 

0:16:25 - (A): Probably of all the ongoing relationships that were a product of being involved in basketball. When I look back on a lot of years playing a sport and then being involved with converse, staying in the business, so to speak. And so that's probably the biggest deal. I wasn't a very good player. I had a lot of good teammates and I was really, really lucky to be on good teams, except for maybe high school. We had a terrible high school team, but junior college gave me new life and then Kansas was awesome. And that's probably the biggest deal. There's still just a ton of people that I talk to, and one is Larry. I don't talk to him very often, but 30 years after we last did any business, I'll get a call from him every once in a while and still stray up with his agent, Jordan Bass. 

0:17:24 - (A): And that stuff's all very memorable to me. It's good memories of my age. It's nice. Look back and have those things. 

0:17:31 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, that's tremendous. I know when you're in the midst of whether it's a season as a player or you as an executive. I mean, you're looking at metrics and spreadsheets and, you know, performance measures like that. But in the rearview mirror, when we look back over a career, those relationships. And that's something that's come up in the show repeatedly. Is just what a relationships guy Larry was and how he made people feel. 

0:17:55 - (Toby Brooks): And so I think that certainly contributed to his celebrity. You were young when you joined converse. Talk to me about how that first position came about. And how maybe your job's changed over the years there. 

0:18:06 - (A): Yeah, we were lucky to. At the University of Kansas. I think my junior year. We were lucky enough to play in the final four. And as back when you played two games in the final four. And lost a pretty tough game to Marquette. And then got beat by UCLA in the consolation game. And so when I got the playing bug, then the next year, you know, we had another good year. Won the big eight, went to the NCAA tournament again. Didn't quite fair as well. 

0:18:40 - (A): And then, you know, I had an opportunity to try and play in the league via the late draft choice. They had a lot of draft picks back in the day. Now they only have two rounds. And they had, I don't know, six or eight, something like that back in the back in the day. Maybe more than that. And anyway, had an opportunity to go to the Celtics training camp. And tour Europe with some of their veterans and a couple of their other rookies. 

0:19:10 - (A): And when I came back, I had an opportunity to play in the Netherlands, Holland and Rotterdam for a year. And my wife and I had just gotten married. And we jumped on a plane and went over there for a season. And had a grand old time. And I came back and we played all over Europe and the Europe cup. And, you know, we just. We played all over the place. Played, I don't know, 60 or 70 games. It was. It was a lot of fun. 

0:19:39 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. 

0:19:40 - (A): And I came back and was gonna be the graduate assistant, the coach, Owens. Ted Owens, who was still with us at 95 years old and doing well, living in. Yeah, living in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And again, one of those relationships that I've stayed with over the years. But anyway, was going to be a graduate assistant there. And there was a former player at Kansas, who I had known, he was about ten years older than me, but we always played a lot. Everybody hung around Lawrence in the offseason, and we always played a lot of pickup, worked out together with some of the old guys and some of the, you know, the new guys that were coming in, that kind of thing. And a guy named Ronnie Lachman, who had played a few years in the original ABA, like the first year of 66 or 67, something like that. But he was now working for converse, and I got to know Reini a little bit, and he never said much. But when I came back from Europe and kind of settled into Lawrence, thinking I was going to go into coaching, Coach Owens called me in and said, hey, theres an opportunity to go to work for converse if you think you might want to do that. 

0:20:57 - (A): And so, God, I listened to them and I got offered a job for $12,500, which was 1976, which was more money than I thought they printed at the time. Yeah, I just, I thought, well, you know, it'll keep me close to basketball and maybe it'll be fun. I'd love to have a career that stayed in sports. And if I was to have had a professional career beyond by year in Europe, it wouldn't have been very long. You know, you don't, players like me don't last 25 years playing basketball somewhere, or at least making enough money to live on. So anyway, yeah, I jumped in and spent my first seven years in Denver, traveling Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, New Mexico, and a little piece of Nebraska, working camps and calling on pro teams and football and basketball and volleyball and baseball and sold shoes to stores that were in that area. And it was just a great job, a lot of travel, a lot of driving in that territory. 

0:22:17 - (A): And some guys at Congress would have a portion of New York City, and that was it. And I got like half the United States to drive around three or four times a year. But it was great fun. Again, many great relationships, both on the retail side, which guys that weren't necessarily former players or coaches or whatever, but they were businessmen and knew how to sell shoes on sporting goods and that kind of thing, and then with coaches and players and general managers and trainers and equipment guys, and you name it on the sports end. And it was quite fun. And from there, I moved back closer to home, just for a different job with converse, to the Chicago area, and lived in Chicago for six or seven years. And then we made one more jump to our headquarters in Boston. 

0:23:16 - (A): That's when I got involved with, I kind of stepped back from the sales end of things with shoes and just led a group called Sports marketing. It was a bit of a new venture for us to have just staffs that called on college coaches and pro teams and all different sports. Did a lot of grassroots promotional stuff, trying to gather visibility and exposure and crazy stuff. Everything from trying to get guys like Larry Johnson to wear your shoes and also trying to get, say, the concession workers at the University of New Mexico in 1983 to wear converse t shirts when they were selling popcorn at the final four. 

0:24:06 - (A): You know, you just had to look at things through little different colored glasses, maybe a little bit outside the box sometimes. Yeah, try and make things happen. And converse was trying to expand. And, you know, we were getting into running shoes, had really good baseball shoes, had good football cleats. And there was a couple other companies that had popped up, like in 1968, a little before my converse flam Adidas game rolling, rolling out at the, I think it was the Mexico City Olympics with the superstar, which was a real lightweight, different design shoe. The old Chuck Taylor all Star, which is what we all wore, was going by the wayside, and there was all these big shoes coming out. And then in 71, I think, although they didn't make a great big splash at first, but 1971, Nike, I think, was formed, and it didn't take too long for them to, man, make a unbelievable impact and whatever it is, 50, 60 years later, obviously, they made some of the greatest decisions in all of sports. 

0:25:22 - (A): Right. 

0:25:22 - (Toby Brooks): Well, interesting to look back, because I've lived that graduate assistant life, and the thought of, you know, 60, 70 hours, weeks, not as a coach, I was an athletic trainer by trade, but long hours and little to no pay, and the thought of a full time gig, probably with benefits, you know, you're supporting a family at that point, or you've got a wife at home. So if you think about the impact a decision like that makes, like if you pass on converse and go into coaching, it's a totally different path. 

0:25:52 - (Toby Brooks): And the relationships are likely different, but still, you're in the basketball universe. And so the focus of this show has been recently on Larry, and that's where your paths came together, is he had had a celebrated collegiate career. I didn't realize this until doing research for the show, but he was high school all american as a senior, two time junior college all american player of the year, rather. Not just all american, but player of the year in high school, two time NJCAA player of the year, and then two time NCAA player of the year. So five years in a row, he's chosen as the best player in his level. 

0:26:32 - (Toby Brooks): And so he makes this splash, first overall pick. And I think famously he wanted to go to Nike and got turned away. So kind of talk me through how converse ends up in the conversation and ends up landing the star of the 1991 NBA draft. 

0:26:47 - (A): Yeah, you know, at that point, Nike was just dominant. Adidas really wasn't a factor much. They had some guys wearing shoes, but Nike was spending all money and they were just growing like crazy. And they were doing the unique stuff. And guys had royalty deals and guys had commercials and their own shoes and just all kind of crazy stuff. And so we had, like Doctor J, we had Berg, we had magic, Mikhail, Mark McGuire, Bill Laimbeer, Carl Malone. 

0:27:30 - (A): We had a lot of people, and you just can't, you just can't sit back. We didn't do a bunch of advertising. We just didn't do enough volume to warrant a tremendous amount of that stuff. And we, man, we looked at a lot of different things to help. You know, you got bird, you got magic. And we did some things. We had a shoe called the weapon, and, you know, I had a cute little jingle to it and was a unique looking shoe. And I was kind of pitted bird against magic. And we had some little think regional things and we had some things that we did nationally, but only a time or two a year, maybe on the NBA Finals or a final four or something. And so we have to keep going. We're not going to just sit back and watch everybody else do something. So we jumped in. Larry's the first pick, obviously, as you mentioned, had an unbelievable career, probably most notable with the running Rebels and coach tarkanian and what they did. And, and we knew that he wasn't going to be real flashy. I mean, he was, if anybody's ever seen him, he is a specimen physically, and which you have to be to play in that league, or at least it helps a whole lot. But he was kind of an undersized four or five his game. 

0:29:05 - (A): And you mentioned it earlier, he kind of had to change his game once he got hosed. But, you know, he was a, he was a little big guy with Charlotte, and he could do a lot of things and get around bigger guys with his agility and finesse and college, he just overpowered everyone. But hey, long story short, we thought we'd go out and visit with him. And I remember going to UNlv and stepping off the plane. 

0:29:36 - (A): I'd only been to Las Vegas a time or two and met him over it. I can't remember some gym where he was working out or practicing or something. And, you know, he, when he came in, I saw the look on his face, you know, here's another dude coming in, you know, what do you, what are you selling? You know what? And I'm just, listen to us. It could be fun, that kind of thing. And anyway, we kind of struck up a little bit of a relationship, had, had a few yucks. And I left there thinking, hey, he's a good kid. He's funny, he's got a good sense of humor, and obviously he's a great player, and we can only do what we can do, but let's see if it works. And so that's what we did. We got then introduced to George after he picked his agent, and we worked out a deal with him. And I remember, right, it was a five year deal, and it was good all around. I think it was good for him because nobody else was really banging on his door. That's, that was probably why we got a chance to get him. But that being said, we also had a, have just a great relationship. That first four or five years was just a lot of fun. 

0:30:59 - (A): And he was all in everything we wanted to do. And then you kind of fast forward, we get into it three or four years. And, yeah, we took them. God, I took them all over Europe, all over the world, actually, doing three on three tournaments, making appearances at hoop, it ups all through Europe, and it was great fun. We're on a little lear jet, a little lease jet, and we're just flying to Milan and flying to Rome and Paris, you name it. And he's making appearances and signing autographs, and everybody's going crazy. And we had a pretty creative advertising agency at the time. 

0:31:40 - (A): I think it was Ingalls Johnson or something like that. They're probably long gone or been absorbed by somebody, but they had a couple of creative guys that were really good, and they, they came up with this grandma thing, you know, and, and they came in, I remember coming into my office saying, hey, we got a concept. I can't wait to hear your shirt. 

0:32:03 - (Toby Brooks): I cannot wait to hear this pitch. 

0:32:06 - (A): Not sure what he's going to think. And I'm like, yeah, I'm all ears. You guys are creative guys, and all I'm going to do is try, and if it's good, shoot, we'll try and make it work. Uh, make, make him get, get behind it and believe in it and all that stuff. And he come out with these storyboards, and he's got this kind of green flower dress on and these glasses and, and it's like, what, what is this? Yeah, well, this is grandmama. 

0:32:39 - (A): You know, that's what he's gonna. He's. Larry Johnson is gonna become grandmama, and he. She's just gonna dunk on people and jump over people and do all this crazy stuff. It was like. Mandy. Yeah. That, you know, if you have a little sense of humor, it was pretty cool. You know, obviously, it moved forward a few years, and it worked real well. But I remember telling Larry about it the first time, and he was just kind of like, what I just saw, you just said, what are you kissing me? 

0:33:15 - (A): Really? A dress? I'm going to wear a dress. And a dress, you know, dress was all custom made for him. Fit in perfect. You know, is one of those free flowing things. And yet that wig on and those glasses, man. It was, it was a hoop, but he bought in. He never balked once. 

0:33:36 - (Toby Brooks): He. 

0:33:36 - (A): Sick. This is awesome. Let's. Let's go. And then we did our normal couple commercials and just got rave reviews. And we had a couple shoes that kind of hitdev. Sometimes shoes hit and miss. If you get a hot shoe and you get a hot ad campaign with it, it creates a lot of interest, a lot of visibility, a lot of sales, a lot of enthusiasm, gets the troops fired up a little bit, all that stuff. So, yeah, I've heard and read about. 

0:34:11 - (Toby Brooks): Another campaign that maybe predated this, where it was pitched that Larry Bird and Magic Johnson are, like, frankensteining, you know, the greatest basketball player, and they're arguing over whether to call him Larry or Johnson, and then magically, it's Larry Johnson. Any truth to that rumor that that campaign was actually floated? 

0:34:29 - (A): Well, you know, I think. I think it was. I think it was an idea, but I'll be real honest with you that I'm nothing thinking my memory anyway, that that got too far past Larry and magic, that, you know, because that, again, is a deal where. And I think those same couple guys came up with that concept. But, you know, magic and Larry, arguably at that time, were. The doctor J was kind of on his way out, Ben. But magic and Bird at that time were arguably the top two players in the world, really. 

0:35:18 - (A): And with Jordan coming on and. But I. Yeah, that it was a deal where I don't think Larry wasn't a big. Larry didn't want to do a whole lot with the shoe deal. He's a quiet guy, kind of like he is today. Nobody, you know, you hardly ever hear from him or about him or every once in a while he pops up in a commercial somewhere, but he didn't care if he had a commercial or a shoe or he liked getting paid and he liked good shoes. So that worked. And magic, on the other hand, was always looking for the next thing, just like he has done in the business world. 

0:36:02 - (A): While probably towards the end of his career and then especially afterwards, the stuff that he's done, that's kind of the way he was. And I think that there was, that concept was floated, but it just didn't get very far. 

0:36:21 - (Toby Brooks): Well, I was in high school in 1991 and a Nike guy through and through, and I will say I bought a pair of react juice Larry Johnson shoes. He caused me to change brands there for just a little bit of what was it like in 1991 to land Larry? Like you said, you went out to unlv. You're going to take a swing at landing the best college basketball player in the land. What did you envision for him? Maybe what did you see for him as a converse athlete looking into the future? 

0:36:54 - (A): Well, the same thing is that we saw in magic and brogue and magic and Bird were signed prior to me. You know, I was involved in re signing them down the road when I got to Boston, but they were well into their career at that point, so I don't want to try and take any credit for bringing them into the fold. But we had a really nice stable of players and sometimes that's not a bad strategy. You know, you pull a lot of guys together. 

0:37:27 - (A): Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. But in the meantime, you have a nice stable of guys that you hope get along, that you hope all are looking out for your company and the shoes that you're trying to sell. And then without having a crystal ball, if things worked out, if the creative guys came up with a campaign and we hit with a really good shoe that was light and comfortable and performed well and didn't fall apart and all that kind of stuff, that you might get lucky. And that's kind of what it was with Larry. We weren't looking at him like night. You looked at Jordan saying, hey, we're going to make you the first player to have his own shoe. We're going to give you your own logo. 

0:38:14 - (A): We're going to pay this and do that. We weren't looking at it like that. We were just looking at it, that he was another piece in the puzzle. And the puzzle was pretty good. We liked the people that we had and we'll see how it works out. And then, you know, it's tough enough just trying to find players and then get them signed and get them to make appearances and do things that you need done. And so the creative guys come up with the ideas, you know, the ad agency guys, and it was one of those things where, you know, his personality and his demeanor and was, was the right match for, you know, a crazy idea of making him a grandma and, and that it just, you know, I'd like to say, oh, yeah, we went and signed him because I had in the back of my head that we were going to do this grandma ma thing and I, but that wasn't it, man. We just, we were putting another piece in the puzzle. 

0:39:19 - (A): Yeah, we had some budget money, and we were going to take a guy who we thought was good. We liked. Hey, we, we had some that didn't work out. They weren't necessarily bad guys, but, you know, maybe had a little bit of a bad run. But, you know, Lutrell Sprewell was an unbelievable NBA player, and we had, we had Latrell and, you know, things didn't work out because he had a few issues, but, man, he was a good player and we thought that was a heck of a fine at that time because nobody really knew about him. 

0:39:50 - (A): Yeah. And we had KJ Johnson and the other Johnson. So, yeah, it's one of those deals we were just trying to keep adding to the cupboard and on the back of all of our minds, hoping that something would work out. And. And it did. It was nice. It was nice to see it. 

0:40:07 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. And I will say one of the appeals for me of Larry coming out of UNLV, I mean, he went to Charlotte, and they're an expansion franchise. Cool new logos, trendy color scheme. They're kind of the new money of the NBA at that time. And you mentioned, you know, you got Bird and Johnson and to a certain extent, doctor J, who were more established and maybe to a young fan, were old. And Larry is the antithesis of that. 

0:40:37 - (Toby Brooks): He's playing for NCAA championships, player of the year awards, and now he goes to this trendy, hot new team in a city that's never had it. What do you think of anything Charlotte had to do with his success? Or was it just kind of a right place, right time kind of moment? 

0:40:53 - (A): Yeah, I just think it came into the NBA when it was making giant strides. Go back to my childhood in the sixties. There was four, six, or maybe eight NBA teams, and you got one game a week, and there was often a fight during the game. And, you know, yeah, it was just, you know, what? It's those, that's just how, that's how it all evolves. It just, those guys had summer jobs that paid them more than their basketball playing did and all that kind of stuff. 

0:41:32 - (A): And then the NBA went through that in the early eighties where they were. There's just a lot of bad stuff happening. There's a lot of, you know, whether it was all true or not, I don't know. But rumor, drug use, all kind of crazy stuff that was going on. Ratings weren't any good. Everything was on delay, and, but just. And then I think Larry O'Brien kind of got the ship righted. And then David Stern, he's the one that just grabbed those horns and said, hey, here's what we're going to do. 

0:42:07 - (A): And it ain't going to be easy and it's not going to happen overnight. But I think from that point forward, and I think that's what Larry got caught up in. He got caught up in the popularity of the NBA and how it was changing for the better. And he was good. He was a good player. He had a great personality. He was in a small market. I mean, Charlotte, nobody really cares about basketball. And Charlotte, pro basketball, they're all Carolina fans. They're all college basketball fans were. 

0:42:45 - (A): So, yeah, I mean, Charlotte was cool. It was new expansion, all that exciting. But I think the thing that Larry really took advantage of was the increasing popularity and enthusiasm for the NBA as a whole. 

0:43:04 - (Toby Brooks): Right. And we've explored this aspect of it with a previous guest, the alignment of the NBA with hip hop culture, with, you know, the inherent blackness of the league, if you'll allow me to use that word. And Larry was an inner city kid, and he certainly had an aesthetic, not in a bad way at all, but he was clearly someone who was trendy, hot, popular, whatever you want to call that. Then maybe a little bit later, Allen Iverson comes in and unashamedly himself, tattoos and cornrows and those kinds of things. 

0:43:40 - (Toby Brooks): And there have been some that, and I think it's convenient. They're looking at history through a modern day lens, and they would say dressing a strong black man up in a dress is an example of buck breaking. What would you say to those critics that would say that this campaign was anything other than just an attempt to poke some fun and have some fun with that season of the NBA? 

0:44:08 - (A): And Larry, that's really all it was. You just, you know, I would say to those people, just get a sense of humor just a little bit. This is a rough world we live in. You know, it's kind of fun when something works. Don't. Don't try and read something into it. You know, there's no. There's no ulterior motive, and there's no plan on trying to. Well, here's what we think about this, and this is what we're gonna. There's nothing like that, man. It was a. 

0:44:37 - (A): It was a fun idea by a couple of really good, creative guys, young guys who I've lost touch with. I'd love to know where they're at. Peter and I can't remember the other guy's name, but they were, man, they were really good. They had a lot of. They had a lot of crazy stuff, and we had the pretty conservative, I'm gonna say, on the older side, executive team at converse and some of that stuff. I mean, I'll give him credit. 

0:45:10 - (A): I would. I would think that you would have asked our president. You'd have shown him that thing first and said, hey, we got to add approval. He just said, no, we are not doing that, and come up with something else. But I give you credit that the whole executive team kind of had to get behind this thing. 

0:45:29 - (Toby Brooks): Well, it's a testament to the creativity and just the cleverness of it. I mean, it's 30 years later, and we're still talking about it. How many ad campaigns can you say that about? It wasn't just another shoe deal with an athlete in a crowd of athletes. It was memorable. And, I mean, to the point that he's on family matters with Steve Urkel, and people still talk about him and use that Grandmama moniker even today. 

0:45:56 - (A): Yeah. 

0:45:56 - (Toby Brooks): Did you have any idea it was going to become that kind of a memorable aspect of the social lexicon? 

0:46:05 - (A): You know, that'd be like saying of Jill Knight. Did you ever think he'd have the greatest fortune that's coming in the mystery of the world? And I can tell you, after reading all of his books and stuff, he'd say, no, hell, no. We, you know, we didn't figure out the name until 2 hours before we had to have one. And we, you know, we didn't have a logo, and somebody came up with this, and, you know, just. 

0:46:30 - (A): And that's it. All the stuff that most of the great, creative, successful things in the world are, contrary to popular opinion, among those who have Harvard MBAs, they're not all done in a business plan. Yeah, something off the cuff might end up in a business plan, but it's just something off the cuff that is totally against the grain, or at least not in anybody's mindset at all. And that was kind of the way this thing was. It took on a life of its own, which is cool, which is what you want it to do, right? 

0:47:13 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. Well, no doubt Larry's celebrity grew. His stature as a superstar grew. And a previous guest talked about how the thought of him ever leaving Charlotte was unheard of. I had a guest who was the PR director for the Hornets, but unfortunately, he gets injured. And not long after, he signs the richest contract in NBA history. At that point, he ends up no longer with the team. So kind of talk me through, from your perspective, the end of that first five year deal, what was it like as maybe that season started to change and his star started to dim, if you would describe it that way. 

0:47:53 - (A): Well, yeah, and it. But it dimmed really slowly. And then he was going to a market, was going to a huge market. Everybody wants somebody in New York. So we knew you just. You had this feeling, you know, it was a bad feeling at the time, but you just had this feeling that this wasn't going to end real well. It just wasn't going to end with him being carried off on somebody's shoulders and going into the grandmama parade, doing all that stuff was gonna. 

0:48:33 - (A): Injuries are tough things, but, yeah. So it kind of ran its course and did the old bell curve thing went up and down, and then it became legend. Then it wasn't on tv anymore. But it, as you just mentioned, it's just kind of carried on through the years with everybody. It's. It's kind of what people remember and thought of and that kind of stuff so. 

0:48:59 - (Toby Brooks): Well, I love that you use that word, because that's what I want to close with. What do you remember most about your time working with Larry Johnson? 

0:49:08 - (A): I remember the. It was truly a lot of fun. It was. George and I had. I don't know what you'd call. I would say it was as close to a nuclear war as you could have tried to negotiate Larry's deals, which was also a lot of fun because we're still friends today, so it's all business. But Larry was just. It was a good bargain for us. I mean, it's a good deal for him. It was one of those deals where we got somebody without paying them at first, without paying them a ton of money. Now, he ended up making a ton of money, and he made good money, believe me, in the shoe business. But he wasn't making Michael Jordan money or anything like that in those days, or bird or magic, but he got really close to that, and he created a Persona that will last in his lifetime, and that doesn't happen to many guys. 

0:50:16 - (A): And you just get on. There's a lot of people that weren't really basketball fans that remembered grandmama just because it was this crazy idea. But, man, it was just, he's a good guy. We did a lot of traveling and he was always cooperative. He was a professional. We had our words at times and that kind of thing. But overall, it was a great relationship and he was really, really good to work with. And, you know, I'm happy. I'm happy for him. I have a daughter who works for the Knicks now, and she sees Larry quite often. 

0:51:00 - (A): And I quite often get a call in the 1030 at night somewhere and she goes, dad, LJ wants to say hi. Just ran into a at Bordeaux, you know, so one of those, one of those deals. But yeah, man, he was really good. He's deserved everything he's got. He's gotten. And he's, he was really good for converse. It was a nice shot in the arm for us, and we're really proud of. I'm speaking of old converse, guys. Really proud of the way that whole thing worked out. 

0:51:35 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. Well, Roger, thank you so much for your time. I sincerely appreciate it, and you're welcome back anytime. I'd love to dig deeper into your story, and I know you've got some good ones there, traveling internationally and your time since working with the Jayhawk basketball squad. So thanks again, Toby. 

0:51:53 - (A): Pleasure, man. Glad to have talked to you and thanks so much. 

0:51:59 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. 

0:52:01 - (A): I am Roger Morningstar and I am undone. 

0:52:07 - (Toby Brooks): For Roger. It's been an incredible career working with some of the biggest names in the game, including Larry Johnson. I'm thankful to Roger for dropping in, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation. For more info on today's episode, be sure to check it out on the web. Simply go to undonepodcast.com ep 99 to see the notes, links and images related to todays guest, Roger Morningstar. Next time on the becoming undone docuseries, the making and remaking of Larry Johnson. 

0:52:48 - (Toby Brooks): All thats left is all thats left. Will I ever connect with the man himself? Drum roll, please. I can say with certainty that I at least have an appointment for an interview with the one and only LJ next week. So come back. Give it a listen. From the mailbag this week I was thrilled to receive an email from my good friend Carolyn Rush, who responded to this week's newsletter with this message that I've excerpted for you. 

0:53:23 - (Toby Brooks): In a society filled with self gratification, I often find myself empty on the inside. Person needs a sense of belonging, end quote. She goes on to share details about how she's feeding her soul through exercise, time and nature. And I'm super thankful to Carolyn for connecting and sharing and I hope you'll do the same. I'd love the honor of hopefully encouraging and connecting with you once again this week. I am personally inviting you, the listener who made it this far, my loyal friend, my fellow high achiever, you. 

0:53:57 - (Toby Brooks): I want you to sign up for my free email newsletter which goes out every Sunday. Go to Undonepodcast CK page that's page and sign up. It's totally free and it's something that I hope will bring you value as you become part of the undone community. And if you message me, I promise to message you back. Who knows, I might even read it for others to enjoy on an upcoming episode. Speaking of episodes, you can check for new ones on the new YouTube channel for the show, where you can find interviews and clips from recent episodes. 

0:54:29 - (Toby Brooks): Go to YouTube.com undonepodcast and check it out. Lord Willin, I'll meet you again next Thursday. Becoming undone is a nitro hype creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. Tell a friend about the show. Follow along on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn at becoming undone Pod. Follow me at tobyjbrokz on x Instagram and TikTok. Check out my linktree@linktr.com dot listen, subscribe and leave me a review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts. 

0:55:09 - (Toby Brooks): Till next time friend. Keep getting better.