EP100: THE MAKING (and re-making) of LARRY JOHNSON PART 9: DEAR MAMA with NBA and NCAA Legend Larry Johnson

About the Guest: 

Larry Johnson, also known by his alter ego "Grandmama," is a legendary basketball player who made a significant mark in the NBA during the 1990s. Born in Dallas, Texas, he was the first overall pick in the 1991 NBA Draft by the Charlotte Hornets and was named NBA Rookie of the Year. Johnson played college basketball at UNLV where he won a national championship. He later played for the New York Knicks and is celebrated for his powerful play and team-oriented approach. Following his professional career, Larry transitioned into a role as a player ambassador for the NBA. 

Episode Summary: 

In this riveting episode of "Becoming Undone," host Toby Brooks welcomes NBA legend Larry Johnson to discuss his extraordinary journey from a challenging upbringing in Dallas, Texas, to becoming a collegiate standout and an NBA All-Star. Johnson shares vivid anecdotes from his early years, including his influential relationship with Coach JD Mayo and life lessons from his mother, Dorotha. The episode chronicles Johnson’s college career at Odessa Junior College and UNLV, his conversation with Nike, and his iconic "Grandmama" campaign with Converse. 

Larry dives into the emotional impact of his father's absence, his time at UNLV under Coach Tark, and his unexpected transition to Converse after Nike’s rejection. The dialogue unfolds to reveal Johnson’s thoughts on the evolution of basketball, the challenge of transitioning from his athletic prime due to a back injury, and his continuation as a player ambassador for the Knicks. Filled with wisdom from Johnson’s playing days and reflections on his ongoing journey, this episode is a treasure trove for basketball enthusiasts and those eager to understand the mindset of a high achiever. 

Key Takeaways: 

• Influence of Early Mentors: Johnson credits much of his success to his junior high and high school coaches, particularly JD Mayo, who instilled discipline and a team-first mentality.
• College and NBA Transitions: Faced with setbacks like missing out on a Division I college right out of high school, Johnson's time at Odessa Junior College and UNLV prepared him extensively for the challenges in the NBA.
• Grandmama Campaign Insight: Initially skeptical, Johnson embraced the iconic Converse "Grandmama" persona, which became a defining element of his career and helped cement his place in popular culture.
• Resilience and Adaptation: Despite early career highs, a significant back injury required Johnson to adapt his playing style and eventually retire, underscoring his ongoing resilience and ability to reinvent himself.
• Team Player Legacy: Throughout his career, Johnson's identity as a team player remained central, contributing to his successful transitions both on and off the court.

Notable Quotes:

1. "Once I went through the discipline of Skyline High School and Coach Mayo, everything else was easy." - Larry Johnson
2. "Nike told me to my face that they didn't want to sign me because they didn't think I would be a good pro." - Larry Johnson
3. "My whole career is because of the people that I've met. And it started with JD Mayo." - Larry Johnson
4. "I appreciate what you said about me, but

Transcript

0:00:04 - (Larry Johnson): This is becoming undone. I'm 13 years old, 14 years old, and coachman was saying to me, son, you can change your life. Yeah, yeah. If you do this and do that and do this and get the discipline. And I can tell you, once I met through, once I went through the discipline of Scotland high school and coach Mayo, everything else was easy. Everything else was, I'm telling you. Yo, this is Larry Johnson, Cyb dollars, Dixon Circle, Cherubim, Texas. 

0:00:46 - (Larry Johnson): And I am undone. 

0:01:06 - (Toby Brooks): Hey, friend, I'm glad you're here. Welcome to yet another episode of Becoming Undone, the podcast where we examine the art of transforming unfinished goals into unstoppable growth, one inspiring story at a time. I'm Toby Brooks, speaker and author, professor, and forever student. I've spent much of the last two decades working as an athletic trainer, strength coach, professor in the professional, collegiate, and high school sports settings. 

0:01:29 - (Toby Brooks): And over the years, I've grown more and more fascinated with what sets high achievers apart and how failures that suck in the moment can be exactly the push we needed to propel us on our path to success. Every week on becoming undone, I invite new guests to examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. I'd like to emphasize this show is entirely separate from my job as a professor, but it's my attempt to apply what I've learned and what I'm learning and to share with others about the mindsets of high achievers. 

0:01:58 - (Toby Brooks): You know, for the past two months or so, I've turned my came of age in the nineties attention to one of my all time favorite athletes, Larry Johnson. I'm hoping you've been around and have shared in the enduring story of how Larry overcame setbacks and adversity to become one of the most recognizable players in the an unmistakable nineties superstar. If you haven't, this is my loving nudge for you to go all the way back to episode 92 and see how it all started. 

0:02:26 - (Toby Brooks): After incredible conversations with everyone from Larry's agent, George Bass, to his equipment manager at UNLV, Larry Chin, and just about every point in between, it's been a remarkable journey for me, and I hope it has been for you, too. When I started this project way back in June in my wildest dreams, it would conclude with a personal interview with LJ himself. And I'm proud to say that's exactly what we've been able to do together right up front. I will have you know I had way more questions to ask, but I didn't want a fanboy too hard and I wanted to be respectful of LJ's time. 

0:03:00 - (Toby Brooks): That said, I hope you'll enjoy my conversation with Larry Johnson in episode 100. Dear Mamade Friends, I'm incredibly excited to welcome today's guest, NBA legend, former number one overall draft pick, key figure in nineties basketball history, Larry Johnson. Specifically for me, you were the athlete and the person that I aspired to be growing up. And after eight episodes talking about you, it's an absolute honor to welcome the one and only Larry Johnson to the show. Larry, thanks for joining me today. 

0:03:30 - (Larry Johnson): We thank you, man. It's a pleasure to be here. We talked about Dallas, Texas basketball. We talked about Coach Mayo, and I'm honored to be here. 

0:03:41 - (Toby Brooks): Well, it's tremendous. It's really been a thrill for me to kind of go through your story and to connect with such incredible people and just folks from your past, Coach Mayo notwithstanding, coach Helms, I mean, there have been a ton. Let's start with your story. I've spent several episodes examining your path to success and in particular a theme that's emerged. Was your mom, Dorotha, how would you describe your upbringing and what impact do you think it had on your professional path? 

0:04:10 - (Larry Johnson): Well, the upbringing that it had on my success was everything because I told me, you know, we just met. We just not talking. I've never knew my father. Toby, just a quick question to you. 

0:04:27 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. 

0:04:27 - (Larry Johnson): You know your mother and father. 

0:04:29 - (Toby Brooks): I do. 

0:04:30 - (Larry Johnson): So I grew up in Dallas, Texas. And we talked in there, you know, you know, we talk in like seventies. We're talking like, I was born and raised in south Dallas Dixon, Suffolk Hotel, Texas, but born in Parkland hospital. And I've never met my father. Toby. I never met my father. So we only talking about doctor Johnson. And here's a young black woman who raised this black guy and she just passed me along, passed me along to coach JD Mayo. 

0:05:02 - (Larry Johnson): And I know you interviewed him before. So my upbringing coming up, it was awesome because I never knew we was poor. I never knew we was going from paycheck to paycheck. All I knew was there was food on the table. 

0:05:20 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. Well, no doubt she left an impact in talking with Coach Mayo, Coach Helms, your agent, even Roger Morningstar with converse. Every person talked about, wow, he talked about the influence that your mom had. And I think it's clear that she certainly left a legacy. I'd say part of, for me, the appeal of your story, I was in high school when you were with the Hornets and UNLV, that kind of thing. 

0:05:51 - (Toby Brooks): And I was. I didn't grow up rich by any means. Ended up at a junior college myself, first generation college student. And you initially committed to SMU coming out of high school, and that door closed. How do you think that that season of your life, going to Odessa and spending two years in Juco with coach Helms, helped shape you as a player and as a person a lot? 

0:06:15 - (Larry Johnson): Because, like you just said, when I was coming out of high school, I was highly touted. So I was like, um. I want to say number one, but Toby, you know what I'm saying? I want to say number one. But, you know, people. People will say, you know, you were six, you were seven, two or three. But I say highly tolerant of. But I had to go to junior college. And those guys, that was before me or right around me, they all went to division one schools. 

0:06:48 - (Larry Johnson): So anyone would have gave up that. Anyone would have said, that's it. That's all. But because of coach mail, because of my mother, because of Dennis hymns, and I've heard you had Dennis himself. Yes. Yes. Because of that man. Because of the guy. Look, my whole career is because of the people that I've met. And it started with JD Mayo. It really started with Ed Wesley. Ed Wesley was my junior junior high school coach. 

0:07:22 - (Larry Johnson): And the reason I say it started with as Wesley, Toby, because he was my junior high school coach. But once I got to high school with coach Mayo and Wesley came to skyline, he came with me. So I didn't know none of this. I didn't know what it was about. But, yeah, man, it all goes hand in hand to help a young man get out of the situation he's in. 

0:07:49 - (Toby Brooks): Right? 

0:07:50 - (Larry Johnson): And Ed Wesley, a junior high school at John b. Hood. John b. Hood, which is in south Dallas, joby hood junior high school. Once I got there, Toby and Wesley came to skyline with me, with coach mill. And then the same thing happened. The same thing happened. So to me, I'm blessed. 

0:08:14 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, it's incredible. I think one thing that has come out in this docu series is you're humble for sure. But you were the player of the year in high school. You were the player of the year two years in a row in juco, player of the year two years in a row in NCAA. You had a standout college career and a standout high school career, for that matter. What were your wildest dreams? Coming up and meeting with coach Mayo might have changed that, but who did LJ expect to become once you made that jump? 

0:08:49 - (Larry Johnson): Toby, I think it was coach Bell, because you said, who my wildest dream man, when I started playing ball, and being from south Dallas, when I started playing ball, yes, I was the football player. You know, first of all, Toby. Toby, I got a question for you. Yeah. Are you from Texas? 

0:09:13 - (Toby Brooks): I'm gonna jump in right here. If you followed along, I've told one story after another for the past eight episodes about how Larry was the coolest guy I'd ever seen in my life. Heck, I had senior pictures made in a cheap replica Charlotte number two jersey. So when I finally get him on and I finally get a chance to interview him, he comes right out of the gate and starts asking me questions. Less than ten minutes in hedgesthem, he does it again. 

0:09:42 - (Toby Brooks): This isn't just some lame interview with a no name podcaster that he got guilted into by a friend or an agent. He's genuinely interested in having a conversation with me. So forgive my lack of journalistic integrity for just a moment if I gush about how my high school hero is better than yours could ever dream of being. That is, of course, unless you also rock the teal number two yourself. I'm not originally from Texas. I've lived here for 15 years. But I certainly understand that football is king and the lone star. 

0:10:19 - (Larry Johnson): That was my question. That was my question. Football is king in Texas. So being from Texas, like myself, it was all about football. So I thought I was going to be a football player than the basketball club. But then I kept growing and kept growing and kept growing and being a young man who's never met his father. Cause my mother was five'nine, you know, five'nine, five'eight. Which, you know, I guess that's tall. Considered a woman. 

0:10:48 - (Larry Johnson): But I guess my father was a little bit taller. Cause I grew to six. Six. So I was always a football guy, being from Texas. But they started hitting. I was a quarterback. I was a quarterback. It started hitting hard when I got to high school. 

0:11:08 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, I heard you on Rex Chapman's show where you said maybe you took a sack and went straight to the gym. 

0:11:14 - (Larry Johnson): Yeah, okay, I'm going straight to the gym. I'm done with it. Because I was pretty good, and I knew I was taller. And I was pretty good in basketball, so. And I was pretty good as quarterback. Yeah, but that sack. No, no, I don't need to go through. I need to go talk. So I went straight to the basketball court, right? And once I did that and met Coach Mayo, that changed my life. That changed my life. And coach Mayo, who? 

0:11:45 - (Larry Johnson): Talking to a young black guy who's never met his father, coach Mayo was saying, son, this is my year. Like, I'm 13 years. I'm 13 years old, 14 years old. And coach May was saying to me, son, you can change your life. Yeah, yeah. If you do this and do that and do this and get the discipline. And I can tell you, once I met through. Once I went through the discipline of Scotland high school and coach Mayo, everything else was easy. 

0:12:20 - (Larry Johnson): Everything else was. I'm telling you, Coach Mayo, Coosmeo and I don't wanna. I really don't wanna do this. But Coach Mayo, there was like, probably three or four pros came through, coach Mayo, but they had to go through the discipline. 

0:12:41 - (Toby Brooks): No doubt about it. So you're successful in high school, a little bit of a detour. End up at Odessa and then you end up at UNLV under legendary coach Tarkin. You're the first overall pick. How do you mentally and physically prepare for the transition from college to the NBA? And what would you say was the biggest challenge you faced in that transition? 

0:13:04 - (Larry Johnson): I don't think you can mentally to go through it. I don't think that. I think you just gotta reflect on the fundamentals because, listen, listen, Toby, they don't do four years. Now, Toby, I got a question for you. Name the number one pick in the NBA that went four years through college. 

0:13:32 - (Toby Brooks): Boy, I. As you're asking, I'm going through the memory bank. Hey, I'm not ashamed to admit it. I failed miserably on the spot, but mostly because this was a really hard question. In post production, I get to turn to the Google machine. And according to Gemini AI, the last number one overall NBA draft pick to complete at least four years of college was Kenyon Martin, who went to the Nets out of the University of Cincinnati in 2000 after spending four years there. 

0:14:01 - (Toby Brooks): Tim Duncan did the same in 97. Coming out of Wake Forest, I'm learning not to always trust the AI right out of the gate, though, as it didnt list Larry prior to 91. Familiar names like Patrick Ewing, James Worthy, Ralph Sampson, David Robinson, ill make the list. But the AI leaves Larry out. My guess is thats because he only spent two years at UNLV and it probably didnt count the two years at Odessa College. 

0:14:30 - (Toby Brooks): As a community college product myself, I can physically feel that disrespect. But the truth is, Larry is right. Hes not only one of only three players since 1991 to complete four years of college prior to going number one in the draft. Instead, Im nearly certain hes the first and the last player to do it with a two year stop at Juco to start off now. Anytime youre the only person in history to do something, you are clearly in rare air elite. 

0:14:59 - (Toby Brooks): And youd have every right to be arrogant about it. But not Larry. You'd never be able to tell it from our conversation, as my dude is still interviewing me here. Some people say you shouldn't meet your heroes because you're bound to be disappointed. Maybe those people just pick crappy heroes, but not mine. Mine's the real deal. This is fun, y'all. Boy, as you're asking, I'm going through the memory bank and it's impossible. Like, everybody comes out early. 

0:15:28 - (Larry Johnson): Okay, well. Well, I was, what, 91? I was 91. Name another one you know that went through four years of college. It was the number one pick in the NBA. 

0:15:40 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, I can't, off the top of my head, tell you who that would be. Typically, they're a freshman or a sophomore or international these days. 

0:15:48 - (Larry Johnson): Well, and you just say international. I hate that. I hate that. And I'm not. I'm nothing hating on the international players, but I'm not international. I'm from America. And this is NBA, this basketball. So this is our game. This is our game. Just like the world games or just like the Olympics. No, we need to win that. The world games and the Olympics young. We need to win NBA girls and guys, we need to win that because this is our game. 

0:16:25 - (Larry Johnson): Yeah, but, you know, it's worldwide now, in which I take pride into. I take pride in that. The joker at Denver. I take pride in all that. I take pride in a guy. And I'm from Dallas, so I take pride in Dallas marriage, winning a championship with their guy. You know, I take pride in it. I take part in that. Is it just an international game? 

0:16:53 - (Toby Brooks): Absolutely. I spoke with Roger Morningstar, with converse, and he mentioned that coming out, you were kind of a Nike guy and were maybe a little disappointed that Nike had passed on the opportunity to endorse you as an athlete. Talk me through the converse deal and what your thought process was like when that all started to unfold. 

0:17:13 - (Larry Johnson): I was a moron. Saw super, yo, yo, I was super. Uh. I didn't, I didn't yo. He hit me by song. He hit me by song that I came out of UNLV. Who was Nike. All Nike. And they. They did a movie. Sonny Vako. They did a movie about Sonny. And Sonny was telling me this and that. But here I am coming out of Unlv. Just one championship. All of that. Da da da. And Nike didn't want me. So yeah, it was a letdown. 

0:17:57 - (Larry Johnson): It was it was a big letdown. But my agent, everybody was gorgeous. We don't care. We don't care. And here come Roger. Mordech saw Roger Morris was going, look, Nike told me when I was drafted them a one. And people were drafted up under me. I'm telling you, Toby, I'm going. I'm talking to my agent. I'm talking to George bad. I'm talking to my agent and I'm going, yo, where's my contract? Where's my contract? Where's my shoe contract? 

0:18:33 - (Larry Johnson): Because everybody that was up under me and Toby, they can go, you know, you can go look at this. I thought it was me, Billy Owens and then Dikembe and Steve Smith and all those guys. I thought that was who would bundle me. But you can go look at that. But what I'm saying to you is they all got contracts before they all got shoe contracts before me really got a contract before being, um, uh, dikembe. They all got shoe shoe contract for me. 

0:19:08 - (Larry Johnson): And I'm going, yo, what my shoe contract is? And Nike said, nike told me, sonny, the Carls told me, Nike do not want to sign you because they don't think you you will be a good pro. 

0:19:24 - (Toby Brooks): That's harsh. I mean, considering what you've overcome to get to this point. National champion, undefeated regular season with the Rebs. I mean, you're the first overall pick to hear that. It's it's got to come as a surprise, I imagine. 

0:19:41 - (Larry Johnson): Yes. Go ahead. Go ahead. Yes. 

0:19:44 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. Well, the the cool part about this is and again, this is why this aligns with my show, is because a lot of times life will deal us setbacks or things. We wouldn't have picked. All those players you mentioned with shoe deals. Nobody's talking about their alter ego or Persona or the ad campaign that was built around them, Nike or not. Whereas today we still talk about grandma. So your Persona became this iconic nineties thing. 

0:20:12 - (Toby Brooks): What did that character mean to you? And how do you think it might have influenced you moving forward? 

0:20:20 - (Larry Johnson): Nice, nice, nice. Big ups to converse. To do what they did. Big up. Big ups to converse. And I gotta say this, big ups to my agent I signed with at that time. And major promotion to do that, to sign with converse. But but, you know, the agent and whoever I had at that time, you know, it was it was great to go to converse because Nike told me told me to face, like they told me to my face, told me they told me to my face that they didn't want to sign me because they didn't think I would be a great, um, I would be a good pro. 

0:20:58 - (Larry Johnson): So. Yeah, man. And for converse to come in there with a. With a ad about grandma, which I didn't want. I didn't want. I was a basketball player, so there's no basketball player that want to put on a dress and a win. You. 

0:21:17 - (Toby Brooks): Right, right. 

0:21:19 - (Larry Johnson): You won a national championship in college. You was a player. You're in college, so you don't want to put a book. You don't want to do that. A gig. Look, that was a gig. You don't want to do that. But I did it because it was fun. And my mom, my mom, who was alive at that time, was saying, oh, that's cool. Don't worry about it. Yeah, she said that. She said, that's cool. Don't worry about it. So I did it. 

0:21:47 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. Well, I think it certainly contributed to your legend. I remember the COVID of Slam magazine, the very first issue. You're front and center there. I remember watching NBA inside stuff. You're all over that talk with Harold Kaufman, with the Hornets very first episode, and he talked about what a kind of cool congruence this was, where, you know, Charlotte's a new team, new market, new colors. You're kind of this new explosive athlete on the scene and just how magical those first few seasons in Charlotte were. What do you remember about that time? 

0:22:23 - (Larry Johnson): Well, what you just said, it was magical at that time because Charlotte before me, I think it was two years. Two years before I got there. So you got mugsy, you got Dale Curry, you got Kenny Gadderson. You had some guys who had great college careers, and people knew about them before I got there. Rex Chapman. Rex, who had a great podcast. I don't want to Rex podcast, but Rex Chapman, who had a great podcast, Kendall Gill. Kendall Gill was there before. 

0:23:01 - (Larry Johnson): And Kendall Gills, like, the biggest or the highest draft. They had Kendall before me. I don't know if they draft Kendall third or fourth, but Charlotte Horner, who was a new franchise, was getting all these draft picks. So now her outcome, because we was considered the young guys, Toby, we was considered the young guns. Kendall Gill, Muslim Bowles, Dale Kerry, Kenny Gaddison, Wheels, considered young guns. 

0:23:37 - (Larry Johnson): So they was building. They was building. So once I got there, now it's time to compete. So I can remember that. I can remember Jre. Remember Jre from. Yeah, from North Carolina. Yeah. And then they had some veterans to go with that. But you had all these young guys that's coming from great universities basketball universities. Jr Reid, yo. Myself, Mugsy, Kendall, Gil, Bill. We come with. From great basketball universities. 

0:24:16 - (Larry Johnson): So they was definitely building a. So what I can remember is coming there and then I also build it because it was the number one pick with me. It was the number one pick with me. All these other guys, like, you know, I can't remember what it was, Toby. But they did some NBA, uh. Yes. Yeah. 

0:24:45 - (Toby Brooks): Expansion draft. Yeah. 

0:24:47 - (Larry Johnson): Like, let these guys go. That's how Mugsy and Dale got there. And mugs and down. Mugsy and Dale call themselves the original. 

0:24:58 - (Toby Brooks): Well, one thing Harold pointed out was that this was an area that was rabid for college basketball but had never had a pro franchise. So I think your point is, you know, the fact that you all are coming from either blue blood programs or in the case of UNLV programs that had had massive success. And so this was like a late eighties, early nineties collegiate all star team playing at the NBA level. And, you know, they filled the arena notoriously, before Charlotte was massively successful. They were breaking attendance records and, you know, just kind of a rabid fan base there in Charlotte. 

0:25:34 - (Larry Johnson): I don't know if it was three or four years. Do the back check. But the three or four years I was there, the Charlotte Hornets, the teal jacket, like I do those. My first two years. My first two years there, my jersey was the number one jersey seller in the NBA. Yeah. It had nothing to do with me. It had a little bit to do with me because I won rookie of the year, but yeah, yeah. What did you say? What'd you say? 

0:26:03 - (Toby Brooks): Toby, you're too modest. Because I have a senior picture somewhere with me in a number two Charlotte Hornets jersey. Because of who was in that jersey. Not just because it was teal. For real. I swear, my very first episode, I talk about that starter jacket of the early nineties and how, you know, the most coveted of those is the purple and teal hornets version of it. 

0:26:33 - (Larry Johnson): All right, Dan, I appreciate that. I appreciate. Because if I wouldn't have won rookie out of here, that's the first year. Then the second year, I made the outsource. 

0:26:44 - (Toby Brooks): Right? 

0:26:46 - (Larry Johnson): Yeah, yeah. But that tail jersey because it was. And then the two strike. The two strike uniform. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Mandy. It all goes hand in hand. It all goes well. 

0:26:59 - (Toby Brooks): You sign what was then the richest contract in NBA history and are locked in, and just a couple of years later, you're injured and you're on the chopping block. And notoriously, that back injury played a huge role in that. How did you cope with kind of the emotional, mental toll that that injury took on you. And how did it shape your approach to life afterward? 

0:27:24 - (Larry Johnson): Well, it definitely saves a lot of life afterwards because I was traded, I got traded to New York. Same. Yeah, right. So it definitely traded life afterwards because now I am this franchise with Charlotte Hornets. But you say not anymore. Now you're going to New York. So, you know, and we talk about it, Toby, we talk about that was the biggest contract at the time. It was $84 million for twelve years. 

0:28:03 - (Larry Johnson): So if we break down $84 million for twelve years, what is that, seven? 

0:28:09 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, yeah. 

0:28:11 - (Larry Johnson): So $7 million and what does these guys make? 50. Yeah, but I understand. I want the credit, though. I want the credit to set that. I think Magna started, started it before me, but I want the credit to be like $7 million a year is when I started because Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan and right after I signed, right after I signed that month, you can look it up, month. Two months after that, Derek Coleman signed the contract and it was like $8 billion or like $1 million before me. He signed before that. And then they took off. And then it took off, you know. 

0:29:08 - (Toby Brooks): Well, I know Charlotte started as a team acquiring talent and you were one of the first big pieces of that. As you mentioned, there's some other names. And then later, Alonzo mourning and continued this, this rise and notoriously beat the Celtics in the first round in the franchise's first ever playoff appearance. So you played on teams with some strong personality, some great talent. How did you manage the relationships and the egos? In a conversation I was having with coach Helms, he said he didn't get onto you often, but he mentioned one time that you had passed when he wanted you to shoot and he yelled at you and you said, I'm just trying to make my teammates happy. And he yelled, I want you to make me happy. 

0:29:52 - (Toby Brooks): And so how did you manage those relationships and egos in the locker room during your time with the Hornets and the Knicks? 

0:30:00 - (Larry Johnson): Toby, did you talk to JB Mill? 

0:30:05 - (Toby Brooks): I did. I've dug into all your past, all. 

0:30:10 - (Larry Johnson): Your coaches, but he also made me this team player because I was so selfish. I'm coming from Sam Danos, big son sufferer, Tuber, Texas. But he made me this team player. They made me this fifth. Now, Joey. Yeah, because it's the NBA, it's whatever professional sports. You have to be selfish if you got the talent. You have to be selfish at some point. And I was too unselfish at some point, Toby, I was too unselfish. And what you ask me right now, I was too unselfe. I should have been more selfish because I had the talent to do it. 

0:30:56 - (Larry Johnson): But this guy had talent. He has you. So, especially weighing into the NBA, even in college, you know, is more Taylor. So you say, here you go. Yeah, man, I was just too unselfish. If you talk to high school, to the league, they will say, he was too unselfish. 

0:31:26 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. Well, I think we see evidence of that in your work today. You are just a quintessential team player, and that's how you've kind of transitioned into this new role. Before we go there today, athletes are a lot more vocal in their stances on social and political issues. How do you see the role of athletes in that conversation, and how did you personally navigate it during your career? 

0:31:51 - (Larry Johnson): Well, at the beginning of my career, that wasn't this much social. Like, I think even when I retired, there was no. I mean, it's called x now, but Twitter, there was no social. Yeah, even when I retired, that wasn't this much. There wasn't this much. And we loved it. We loved it because at least you had a social life. At least you had a private life. But now, based on playing with what's going on now, and everybody got a podcast. 

0:32:31 - (Larry Johnson): Everybody got this. You got to go with that. So it was. It was a little. Is here to go through it now. So that. That was my. That was. That's how I got through it. That's how I got through it. But when I talk about alonzo and like we were just saying, man, the Charlotte Hornets kept going up. Kept going up, and Charlotte Hornets had a chance to really, really win a championship. 

0:33:06 - (Toby Brooks): Well, you've transitioned from being an athlete to now taking on roles, working in the Knicks front office as an ambassador. And I have to assume you were a basketball player and an athlete first. That was a key part of your identity. Talk to me about how when you took that jersey off for the last time or slipped those sneakers off as a competitive professional athlete for the last time, how did that impact you as a person? 

0:33:30 - (Larry Johnson): Well, honestly, I was ready, and the reason I was ready because of injuries. So when I did do that, it wasn't like how many athletes, including Michael Jordan, who I believe the goat, who I believe the best preacher preach. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I believe the best fat fuck player ever played a game. I believe baseball player never did. But what he do? What he do? He retired. Came retired, bash. Then he was retired. 

0:34:06 - (Larry Johnson): I was like, yo, what you doing? You the best ever do this, fam, but you wouldn't. So I said to myself, I'm not gonna do that. But it was injuries with me, it was injuries made. So when I did retire from the next, and I said, I'm not coming back, it was all because of injuries. I wasn't gonna do it. But I, look, I left it all out there. I left it all out there. So if you leave it all out there and, you know, you can't be better than what you was the year before, there's no reason to come back. 

0:34:40 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's a tough thing. And I've talked to a lot, I've talked to Navy SEALs and former NFL players and folks of all different stripes, and it seems like there's two types. There are people that just can't leave the past in the past. It's so woven into who they are that they're just miserable from that point forward. And there are others that, like you said, you knew that you gave it all you had. 

0:35:03 - (Toby Brooks): And to go back out there, you just weren't going to do yourself or your legacy justice because you weren't going to be the same player. And one thing that definitely impressed me about you is you come into the league as this incredible dunker and this powerful athlete. You're undersized at six six playing the four or the five, but you're hanging with these taller players because of your athleticism. 

0:35:24 - (Toby Brooks): Then later in your career, the back injury had kind of taken that and now you're an outside scoring threat. Was that a conscious process where you said, I'm not going to be able to fly through and over people now I'm going to change my game so that I can continue to play? 

0:35:41 - (Larry Johnson): Yes, it definitely was a conscious process because I went through JB Baito at Skyline High School and then I went through coach Hams. Listen, that was the same, that was the same JD Mayo, coach Ham's junior college. It was all about fundamentals. Look, they old school, they old school. So it's fundamentals first. Now, if you. That athletic, which I was fine. You can jump over and duck it. If you, if you do something as, you know, out of the ordinary. 

0:36:18 - (Larry Johnson): Look, that wasn't supposed to happen, but you made the two points, two points and dunk it over him and do something. But it's fundamental first. So I learned fundamentals first. So I learned how to, you know, elbow tuck, follow through, release from the fingertips. 

0:36:43 - (Toby Brooks): Just gonna barge in right here real quick and say that even today when I was shooting around on a borrowed court I'm probably not even supposed to be on. That's walking distance from the tiny apartment where we're staying on the Baylor campus. I heard those words in my head, in Larry's voice, and then even coach Mayo's voice. Elbow tuck, follow through, release from the fingertips. Heck, I think it's pretty obvious. I'm not even trying to hide the fanboy in me. 

0:37:07 - (Toby Brooks): This is awesome. 

0:37:12 - (Larry Johnson): So now. So here I am in New York. Here I am in New York, and I don't have that athletic ability because of the herniated disc that I had. But in New York, you can't believe this. In New York, me and General Starks go through this a lot. General Starks is known for this dunk d ad over. It went over my controller. But he had this great dunk, and I'm known for the four point play. Yeah, but that's what we wasn't known for in our career. 

0:37:43 - (Larry Johnson): I was known for Duncan. He was known for shooting right call for time. 

0:38:01 - (Toby Brooks): John starts with the move of the. 

0:38:05 - (Larry Johnson): Night to give the Knicks a five point lead with 47 seconds remaining in the fourth. Here it is. BJ Armstrong expects help. Now he's looking around. He gets picked off. No help comes in. Starks goes, oh, so big. And look who was at the top. 

0:38:23 - (Toby Brooks): None other than Michael Jordan. And he could, couldn't do anything about it. 

0:38:29 - (Larry Johnson): What a spectacular move. Eleven and 910 seconds to go. Ward with a pass tip, but handled by Johnson. Johnson is three point territory, but got it tightly. Johnson cuts left, now fires a three. It is good and he's fouled. It counts and he is fouled. Laurie Johnson looking for the free throw is good. A four point play by Larry Johnson. And the Knicks have defeated the pacer in dramatic fashion. 

0:39:04 - (Toby Brooks): That's incredible. I never made that connection, but you're 100% right. Yeah, that's tremendous. Well, when you look back at your career, what do you hope your legacy is? On and off the floor. And is there anything you think people misunderstand about your journey? 

0:39:21 - (Larry Johnson): First thing. What? You just asked what people misunderstand by my journey. I have no comment. Look at it. You say you misunderstand, just look at it. But my career teammate first, all my team. That's super. That's super quick. And that's going from JD Mill. It was all about winning and being a team made first. And that. That helped me through my whole career. That helped me through those USA teams I made. 

0:39:59 - (Larry Johnson): I remember trying out for these USA teams and you got a duck, but you, you do the right thing and pass it over. It was all about Coach Mayo, uh, coach Ed Wesley, which was the assistant coach at Skyline high School. It was all about. I'm telling you, it was all about being a team player, man. Yeah. Like I said, I love UNLV. When you ask Charlie Hornets. Yeah, yeah. Who was the best? Yeah. 

0:40:35 - (Toby Brooks): Well, I think there's no doubt that was part of the big appeal for me, and many in my generation was, you see, this athlete who's an incredible superstar, has all the gifts and all the ability and all the work ethic, but there's just a humility. And even going back to the grandmama campaign, there's some athletes that take themselves a little bit too seriously, and there's no way that they would have the fun that it took to do that. 

0:41:00 - (Toby Brooks): You were excessive. 

0:41:01 - (Larry Johnson): Say that, Brody. Say that, bro. The reason I say, don't say that because they tricked me into that. 

0:41:16 - (Toby Brooks): Well, Roger makes no apologies. He said, you know, it was lightning in a bottle. And so much about that campaign grew and kind of became a monster in and of itself. But certainly it speaks to your humility. And I've said this before, like, thank the good lord he didn't give me your gifts because I would have been an insufferable superstar. You handled it with much more class and grace than I would have. 

0:41:45 - (Toby Brooks): Here's a question I ask of all my guests. If we were to watch a montage of your life, what song would you choose to play in the background and why? 

0:41:54 - (Larry Johnson): Tupac. Dear mama, dear mama. 

0:42:12 - (Toby Brooks): Tell me more. 

0:42:14 - (Larry Johnson): No, I appreciate what you said. What more fans. It was about your life, man. It started with my mom's, bro. It started with my mom and asked coach Bale, and you say you. You intervened that coach Bill say, here's my son. Take care of this. And I know he did. He did. That's his favorite. That's his favorite, uh, you know, when he go, um, when it was cut. When it comes to Larry Johnson, doctor Johnson went, coach, here's my son. 

0:42:47 - (Larry Johnson): Do what you can with him. Yeah, I love that. I edited what she said. I'm like, lord, what you doing? I hated it, but it turned out perfect. Coach, you made me, bro. 

0:43:00 - (Toby Brooks): It sure did. Yeah, he does tell that story. Your mother saw the ability in you, and she sought out Coach Mayo because she knew that he could get you where you were destined to go. And that's such a powerful thing. Larry, I want to be aware of your time, and I thank you. I know that. That you and your teammates have a documentary that you pull together. What, what else you got going on that my listeners could, could check out to follow your work? 

0:43:27 - (Larry Johnson): Well, check out my website and check out Twitter. But right now it's all about, like you just said, that unib documentary because we kept that to our, to our, we kept that tighten. We kept that tight because of Coach Tarkania. And nobody liked us. Nobody liked that UNLV thing, but we kept it tight. So check that out. 

0:43:53 - (Toby Brooks): Definitely will. Well, kings of Vegas is the name of the doc, and there'll be more coming on that in the future. Larry, thank you so much for your time. It's been a real treat, real honor. And I can't thank you enough for, for dropping by today. 

0:44:08 - (Larry Johnson): No, I appreciate this. But do me a favor. I will make sure I get this. 

0:44:13 - (Toby Brooks): Absolutely. 

0:44:15 - (Larry Johnson): This is Larry Johnson, Dixon Circle Turbo, Texas, and I am undone. 

0:44:31 - (Toby Brooks): For Larry, it's been an incredible career working at the highest levels of basketball, and it's a career that continues to this day with his work as a player ambassador for the New York Knicks. I'm thankful to Larry for dropping in and I hope you enjoyed our conversation. Shall also point out, I'm eternally grateful and thankful to George Bass for coordinating the whole conversation. For more info on today's episode, be sure to check it out on the web. 

0:44:55 - (Toby Brooks): Simply go to undonepodcast.com ep 100 that's episode 100. Woo hoo. To see the notes, links and images related to today's guest, Larry Johnson. Also be sure to check out all the episodes 92 through 100 in the becoming undone docu series. The making and remaking of Larry Johnson, y'all. This has been a heck of a journey and I've enjoyed every minute of it. I'm gonna take a couple weeks off to regroup and rest up a little bit. At least I think the plan is to be back with you. Returning for Thursday drops on October 10. 

0:45:30 - (Toby Brooks): Still working out the details and lining up some guests, but I promise it's going to get even better from here, my friend. So do me a favor. Let's meet back here on October 10. In the meantime, I'm once again personally inviting you to sign up for my free weekly encouragement, the undone. I'm thankful to longtime friend and listener Mary Rees Farias, who messaged me this week. I read part of her message here. 

0:45:54 - (Toby Brooks): I loved your message on purpose. I periodically lead my members through a goal setting process and the first thing we do is focus on uncovering purpose, then move into vision, goals, planning. What I found is that if we really examine our talents, our experiences, our desires. We will notice a thread going back for me, I noticed that every role I've ever been in, whether it was in grade school, family, gymnastics, coaching, boss, employee, and now as a personal development guide, I've always led by example. I didn't ask anyone to do something that I didn't try or do in my own life. 

0:46:27 - (Toby Brooks): I didn't harp on them when they didn't do it themselves. But I continued to show up doing the work I said I would do, getting the results I wanted usually to get. So I wanted to share with you what I've uncovered as my purpose. Now, after a quest of many years, I'm so happy and grateful now that I live in harmony with my God and the laws leading by example. Mary's a former high level gymnast who I met at the University of Arizona, and after her career in gymnastics and eventually gymnastics coaching, she's now a successful author and personal coach. 

0:47:01 - (Toby Brooks): You can connect with her on Facebook or Instagram. Just search for Mary Reese Farias. I'll drop the links in the show notes. If you'd like to contribute to the conversation, go to Undonepodcast CK page and sign up. It's totally free. That's something I hope will bring you value as you become part of the becoming undone community. In other big news, I'm pretty stoked to share some other big happenings that are going on, but they aren't quite ready to be pulled out of the oven just yet. 

0:47:29 - (Toby Brooks): So when we meet back on October 10, hopefully I'll be able to share them with you. So stay tuned. Becoming Undone is a nitro hype creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. Tell a friend about the show and follow along on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn at Becoming Undone Pot and follow me at Tobyjbrooks on X Instagram and TikTok. Check out my link tree at Linktr ee tobyjbrooks. 

0:47:52 - (Toby Brooks): Listen, subscribe and please leave me a review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts. It would help tremendously. Till next time, keep getting better.