EP101: MAKE SURE THEY'RE PERFECT with Joe Cherewan, World-Class Metal Finisher

About the Guest:

Joe Cherewan is a world-class metal finisher known particularly for his expertise within the automotive industry, attracting a global clientele, including high-profile drag racers and car enthusiasts. Joe has honed his unique skill set over decades, working on high-performance dream builds, including street-strip and showcar projects. Although he stepped away from the field recently, he's also ventured into breeding champion French Bulldogs, indicative of his continuous pursuit of excellence, regardless of field or industry.

Episode Summary:

In this revealing episode of Becoming UnDone, Toby Brooks delves into the world of Joe Cherewan, an acclaimed metal finisher whose work transformed high-performance cars into road-going masterpieces. This discussion provides listeners with an inside look at Joe's journey, highlighting his rise to fame in the automotive world, why he chose to leave it all behind, and what he’s learned about the pursuit of perfection. The journey is sparked from humble beginnings in a 7th-grade shop class to becoming a global beacon in automotive finishing that attracted royalty and race champions alike.

Through this insightful conversation, Brooks and Cherewan address the thematic trappings of professional success, craft mastery, and personal satisfaction. They touch upon subjects like the impact of economic conditions on niche markets such as metal finishing, handling demanding clientele, and finding equilibrium between professional achievements and personal well-being. This episode serves as a reflection on how one's career can both serve as a source of substantial acclaim and demand profound personal sacrifice, while also providing a blueprint on navigating such complex experiences.

Key Takeaways:

• Craft Mastery and Professional Growth: Joe’s rise to the top of the metal finishing industry was driven by a commitment to perfection and an eye for marketing and branding his work.
• Work-Life Balance: The demands of high-profile work left Joe with feelings of burnout, prompting him to prioritize personal well-being and balance.
• Clientele Challenges: Navigating relationships with exacting clients in a high-stakes, high-budget industry posed significant experiences and learning moments.
• Life Beyond the Industry: Joe pivoted to newfound passions, such as champion French Bulldog breeding, showcasing his ability to apply similar dedication across different ventures.
• Finding Value in Self-Accomplishment: The importance of self-validation over external acknowledgment is emphasized as Joe overall matured and reflected on his professional journey.

Notable Quotes:

• "It was immaturely making a mature decision, I'm gonna do something really bad or walk away."
• "I don't ever want to have to take that favor from anybody. I don't want to be back in somebody's pocket."
• "If I want to learn about a pencil, I'm going to master that learning process of anything I put my mind to."
• "At the end of the day, if you don't believe in yourself... you're never truly going to find it."

Resources:

• Follow Joe Cherewan on Instagram:

Transcript

0:00:00 - (Joe Cherewan): Kind of boastful to talk about. I pissed a lot of people off by saying I was done, which was a first for me. There was a lot of people that were, like, flat out pissed. Like I had gotten some messages like, where am I supposed to go? What led up to that was another strong feeling of being highly unappreciated by the employer side of it. It wasn't necessarily that I wanted to leave my customers high and dry.

0:00:24 - (Joe Cherewan): It was just another one of those things where it's like, you know, I've seen red flags like this before to where I've done this before. Like, this is that same feeling again. But now I feel mature enough to be able to recognize those red flags before they really bury me. And that was, you know, part of my growth as an adult over the years of doing this to where now I recognized this isn't right for me at the moment. What gave me the confidence to do that?

0:00:54 - (Joe Cherewan): There really wasn't any. It was immaturely making a mature decision, I'm gonna do something really bad or walk away. Hey, everybody, I'm Joe Chirwan. I am under.

0:01:22 - (Toby Brooks): Hey, friend. I'm glad you're here. Yet another episode of Becoming Undone, the podcast where we examine the art of transforming unfinished goals into unstoppable growth. One inspiring story at a time. I'm Toby Brooks, a speaker, an author, a professor, and a forever student. I spent much of the last two decades working as an athletic trainer and a strength coach in the professional collegiate high school sports settings, and over the years, I've grown more and more fascinated with what sets high achievers apartheid now, failures that can stink in the moment can end up being exactly what we needed to propel us on our own paths to success.

0:02:00 - (Toby Brooks): Each week on becoming undone, I invite a new guest to examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. I'd like to emphasize that this show is entirely separate from my job as a university professor, but it's my attempt to apply what I've learned and what I'm learning, and to share with others about the mindsets of high achievers. I am glad to be back after a couple weeks off.

0:02:31 - (Toby Brooks): I really enjoyed the series I just finished up about legendary basketball star Larry Johnson. It was a fantastic experience for me, and I hope you found some reasons to laugh and some stories to get inspired by. I'm still thankful not only to Larry, but especially his agent, George Bass, who helped connect me with many of the guests, including himself, for those final three episodes. George, if you're listening thank you just does not seem to do it justice.

0:02:56 - (Toby Brooks): But anyway, thank you. Now that we're back to our more.

0:02:59 - (Toby Brooks): Traditional format, I wanted to take some.

0:03:01 - (Toby Brooks): Time to tell some stories of some other inspiring folks who I have admired from afar what now feels like a previous life. I was art director for RPM magazine for seven years. It's an international publication focused mostly on high performance, drag race oriented, classic and late model muscle cars. During that time, I embarked on what id consider the most ambitious goal or project of my life, a wild, no holds barred, street stripped 2005 Ford Mustang.

0:03:31 - (Toby Brooks): The car was supposed to be a showcase of show car good looks, modern technology, state of the art horsepower. It might have been my most ambitious goal, but five years, an investment of six figures and no end in sight.

0:03:45 - (Toby Brooks): Made me get honest with myself.

0:03:47 - (Toby Brooks): I didn't have what it took to finish it. That's another story for another day. Or maybe something I need to unpack with a therapist sometime. Regardless, during that season, I crossed paths with this metal finishing guy that I found on Facebook. Everything he posted had a look unlike anything I'd ever seen. Whether it was polished aluminum, stainless steel, or any of a variety of other things, his stuff all looked flawless.

0:04:15 - (Toby Brooks): I contacted him about doing some work on the project car, but to no avail. After all, I was on a tight timeline, and someone with a skill set like Joe Cherwin had a massive backlog of hungry, paying clients already. So fast forward. Long story short, although I was never a customer, I had become a fan. I saw some of his work in the high dollar bills that we featured in the magazine, and I followed him on social media to see the caliber of his work over and over again.

0:04:44 - (Toby Brooks): Until one day it all stopped. This dude, who was sought out by the likes of sultans in the Middle east and high rolling drag racers in the US alike, walked away. And not to be overly dramatic, but in some circles it was like when Barry Sanders up and retired from the Detroit Lions at the peak of his career. Joe could literally have had his pick of any job. He could name his price. His fandom was, and even still is, as extensive as it is diverse.

0:05:15 - (Toby Brooks): But he'd had enough. So he walked away. It's been said that perfectionism is a razor, and it can propel us to achieve unimaginable success. Same time, it can drive us to incredible depths. Joe had poured his heart, his soul, and decades of his life perfecting his craft. And while it satisfied for a time, it eventually became a burden he no longer wanted to bear. So he stepped away. Some would call it. Crazy haters would call it stupid.

0:05:51 - (Toby Brooks): I'd say it was brave. Regardless, I knew that there had to be a story in there somewhere that we could all enjoy, connect with, and be inspired by. And I wasn't wrong. I hope you'll enjoy my conversation with world class metal finisher Joe Chewon in episode 101. Make sure they're perfect.

0:06:13 - (Toby Brooks): Joining me this week is Joe Chowang. I should have checked before that. I had that pronunciation correct.

0:06:19 - (Joe Cherewan): Nailed it.

0:06:21 - (Toby Brooks): Well, that's good. Joe and I go back several years. I had a project car that I was working on, and I was interested in getting some stuff polished or chromed or whatever, and all points seemed to point toward Joe. So, Joe, thanks for joining me today. Looking forward to hearing your story.

0:06:40 - (Joe Cherewan): Absolutely. It was a little bit of a kind of a wow moment when you asked me to be a part of this. So, yeah, I'm up for being transparent and sharing any of my journey that might be able to help anybody.

0:06:55 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, well, I'm really looking forward to digging into the details, but as I said, I really kind of crossed paths with you, seeing your work and people that I trust and respect that sent their stuff from all over the globe to have you work on, frankly. And suddenly you weren't doing that. And anyone that gets world renowned for a particular skill like that who walks away from it suddenly is a story I want to hear. So I guess we'll start at the beginning, wherever that is for you. Tell me a little bit about your background and how you got into the metal finishing industry.

0:07:31 - (Joe Cherewan): So the metal stuff. So I started. I probably did my. Or I can give my earliest credit to my 7th grade shop class. I had a teacher that was phenomenal. His name was Jim Knowles. And one of our projects, I don't even know if they do shop classes for kids anymore, but one of our projects is they gave us a metal cleat, a railroad spike, and he wanted us to do something fantastic. We had already done a couple other projects, like making our own toolbox and duct decoys.

0:08:11 - (Joe Cherewan): And I remember asking him, is there a way to make these things shiny? And, you know, I was twelve or 13 years old, and he told me, you see that whole wall of rafts on the wall? And I said, yeah. And he's like, you start with the roughest one and work your way to the finest one. And it took me about a week and a half every day in class. He allowed me to sit the whole 45 minutes or so in class. And I was scrubbing all four corners and the top of this big old railroad spike, and I kid you not, I got that thing within a mirror and it was the most exciting thing I've ever seen in my life.

0:08:52 - (Joe Cherewan): And it was just one of those things that kind of stuck with me. Like I could take this rusty chunk of iron and all of a sudden people wanted it. All my friends, well, can we have that? Can I buy that? It was just one of those things where working with my hands always worked out. And then I did a few different summer jobs here and there. And I never really got to just do whatever I wanted in metal until later on in my adult life.

0:09:24 - (Joe Cherewan): I had done so many different various forms as a young adult or even a blossoming teenager doing summer jobs, you know, from turret work to press break work and all different kinds of metal work. But it was never just polishing. That was always like the background of, hey, I know I can do something a little bit more with this, I know I can do something a little bit more with this. And I never had the opportunity until much later in life.

0:09:51 - (Joe Cherewan): Yeah, so that was kind of the start with. It was 7th grade shop class is what opened my eyes to it.

0:09:58 - (Toby Brooks): That's cool. I was about the same age and my dad was building a small block Chevy. We had a high rise single plane wyand intake that I had seen at a car show. I'm like, why is that one shiny? And ours is rough. And my dad's like, well, it's been polished. And so I remember asking around and I didn't get to the point that you said, I kind of destroyed the thing, went after it with a file and a rasp and it was a nightmare. And my dad ended up having to take it to a.

0:10:26 - (Toby Brooks): A guy who had made knives and he did the best he could. But man, there's something so gratifying about taking a piece and turning it into art. In many instances where, you know, it was this rough cast aluminum thing and now it's like a shiny centerpiece sitting on the top. Up to that point, what were your career aspirations and did that trigger anything within you? Did, when did it start to become something that you started to think of? I might be able to make some money at this.

0:10:58 - (Joe Cherewan): Well, to be perfectly blunt, I wanted nothing to do with it because I kept getting let down. I would get these fantastic jobs and I always had this mindset of, I'll touch. Back when I was 14, I worked at McDonald's for a summer, and I had the same mindset of, you got to be the best. Anything you do if you're flipping fries, you make sure that they're perfect. So I'd get these great jobs that had like a small factor of what I wanted to do, and I always would put my heart into everything, advance through the company.

0:11:36 - (Joe Cherewan): But it was never for me, it was always the gratification of everybody else. And it's kind of that, I don't know, theres probably a medical term, mommy issues of some sort. You always want that seal of approval, right? You always want that pat on the back of the good job and id get that. But it was never good enough. It was never good enough. So I started really turning my back on metalwork because it seemed like it was such a constant letdown, it was such an economy driven thing to where, especially if youre in the cosmetic side of it, youre really at the mercy of what the economy is doing because if people dont got money to spend on extra trinket stuff, you're out of a job.

0:12:18 - (Joe Cherewan): So as a young adult, I got really, really involved as a firefighter and I went to school for it. I got my degree in medical stuff to be a paramedic and I did that for like ten years. And that was kind of my stepping away from focusing so hard on, okay, metal isn't the only thing in the world, but it was always something good to fall back on because I don't know if anybody knows, but you really don't get paid squad at the medic either. You're hanging your ass out there, but you really don't make a whole lot of money doing it. They say it's, oh, it's forgotten country.

0:12:55 - (Joe Cherewan): Well, it's, you don't get paid for it. And then about ten years ago, I was approached to, it's time to do things your way. And there was some agreements made and that was when I made the transition to DCF. And it was kind of, you know, the reins are off, go ahead and run it. And I seen a severe lack of marketing, a severe lack of branding, and I figured it like, you know, if I'm going to do this now, you know, those last 20 years of doing all this other random stuff, now I can actually apply it to, to one thing and maybe feel appreciated for what I felt my craft was.

0:13:43 - (Joe Cherewan): So that's when that started about ten years ago, and I was just bound and determined to be the absolute best that it could be done. And I always held the standard of, if I wouldn't be happy with it myself, to own it myself, then why would I expect somebody to pay for it. Right. That was always a big attitude I had.

0:14:09 - (Toby Brooks): Right. And that kind of coincides with the emergence of small tire, the no time.

0:14:17 - (Toby Brooks): Cars that just have these insane budgets.

0:14:20 - (Toby Brooks): And, you know, twin turbo this and ls that. And some of the stuff that I've seen that you've put your hands on just immaculate cars to begin with. And then the finished metal part is just, you know, the icing on the cake. These are showpieces that also are incredibly fast cars. So how did you go from being offered a job to being the go to guy for these high dollar, almost no, no expense spared bills so I.

0:14:50 - (Joe Cherewan): Can give credit to somebody that's no longer with companies names. Brady Phillips, out of Racecraft, Inc. He, out of a whim, needed a couple things done for Zif Hudson's new build. And I somehow never even meeting this guy in person. He just, you know, pretty much yellow paged us or googled who can make something shiny. Only wanted a couple things done initially, and I somehow, you know, I didn't b's him or nothing, but I somehow got them to a point where let me come down. You know, it was like a five hour drive for me. I was like, you're somewhat local. Let me come down and actually see what the car looks like, what the build is looking like, because they were at the time using that as kind of their flagship build because, you know, Zif had just got the small tire record, was totally changing stuff up, having some trouble with that mustang because it was never designed to be that fast as it was.

0:15:52 - (Joe Cherewan): But that was right when he switched to the twin turbo setup, he had burnt up in the big single, and all the piping was when I got down there to their shop, they brought me in. At the time, in comparison, I was a nobody to what they were doing. They had Fletcher Cox car on the other side. They were doing some big stuff. I seen all this raw metal on this cardinal, all the tubing, and I was like, you have no idea what I could do with any of this.

0:16:22 - (Joe Cherewan): Seriously. Like, what do we got to do? What do we got to do to. Let me just take all of it. And, you know, an hour later, after some handshakes, I had the back of my car loaded, every single piece of raw metal on that car that could unbolt within an hour. And their big thing was like, well, is this coming to pick it up in like, a week? It might be a couple of late nights, but you'll see. Like, just trust me.

0:16:51 - (Joe Cherewan): And they took a shot with me, and that was kind of like I had done some pretty cool stuff prior to that. I would call that my breakout. Like once that car got put together, they were like beyond. Nobody had ever seen that level of finishing before. Prior to that it would have been like you just send your stuff out, comes back shiny and you don't maybe know any different. People weren't doing stuff to a micron finish.

0:17:22 - (Joe Cherewan): So one zift car got put together and brought out there and my name got attached to that. Again, racecraft was really good about that. They were really, really excited to be able to pass that torch and say who did it? And I've always believed in that too. You know, you don't take credit for something you didn't do. You'd be able to boost somebody else up. And they helped tremendously during that time.

0:17:47 - (Joe Cherewan): Attached my name to it. Zif got on board and was super blown away because he has had a finisher that does all kinds of stuff and even his finisher reached out to, was reaching out to me saying, how did you do some of stuff? You know, like the headers? And nobody had ever seen headers done like that before. Intricacies. So that was kind of my breakout. And then from there it was creating a trust and partnership with people. It wasnt just the arrogance of, yeah, im going to do it really, really good. Trust me.

0:18:20 - (Joe Cherewan): I was flying down to South Georgia from Minneapolis. I was showing up at the racetrack, meeting these people, putting a face behind the brand, giving them something to actually believe in versus just something random company that give me your check. And this is what you get when you get it back. Some of that came later on in time because I got a little tired of dealing with really, really snotty people. But that was kind of my breakout on the scene details there, right.

0:18:53 - (Toby Brooks): And I don't know if your experience aligns with this, but for me it seems like drag racers come in two flavors. There's the leakers who just want a car that'll go down the track and they don't care what it looks like. It's caked with tire bits and dirty, nasty wiring everywhere. And then there are the meticulous people who, their entire operation is like a showpiece and whether it's their hauler or their cars or whatever.

0:19:20 - (Toby Brooks): And those types of folks tend to.

0:19:23 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, they're very demanding.

0:19:24 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, they've got big budgets, but that can be a really challenging clientele to deal with day in and day out.

0:19:31 - (Joe Cherewan): I'll tell you, there was, there was, there was times where I physically couldn't comprehend some of the budget into this stuff. And, you know, we're talking, you know, my end was maybe two, three grand, right? In bright worker polishing. Some of these guys got 35 grand plus in paintwork and you're talking, one of these cards at any moment could tap the wall and it's done or an injector hangs or it's, and it's done. And the amount of money, some of them, like you said, yeah, some of them, they just don't care. They want it a certain way.

0:20:09 - (Joe Cherewan): Whatever it costs, they don't care because maybe they're writing it off somewhere else. But I, some of it, I couldnt believe the budgets, right.

0:20:19 - (Toby Brooks): And I think this is one of those things where you have to, to a certain extent, do some of this work to appreciate the amount of work that goes into it. I remember a Facebook post you made a few years ago where you talked about the difference between, you know, kind of a half hearted job and an all out job where youve got years of experience. Youre reading the temperature and the feel of the sandpaper in your hand.

0:20:44 - (Joe Cherewan): Yep.

0:20:45 - (Toby Brooks): This isn't just something you can watch a YouTube video on one day and be a self proclaimed expert the next. So kind of talk me through that process of, of learning on the fly. You get this big break and then all of this high dollar, big budget build starts coming your way. What was that process like for you and how were you growing during that time?

0:21:08 - (Joe Cherewan): So some of it was a little bit of learning on the fly, but I had also been doing different forms of it for like 20 years prior through, you know, I was in pharma, pharmaceutical and medical grade stuff for a while. So I learned the difference between, say, the chrome bumper on your car, if you put that under a ten power microscope, that's up to about a number eight finish. Right. So from 10ft away it looks like a mirror, but you put it under 1010 power scope it, it'll look like the Grand Canyon. It's terrible for stuff that gets implanted in your body. It's got to be a minimum of 16 to mostly 32 micron to where even under 100 power scope it's still as smooth as glass.

0:21:50 - (Joe Cherewan): And so that was the approach I took to the automotive stuff. I said to myself I was going to do a medical grade finish on automotive stuff and that's where, that's where the real eye opener had been for customers because like I had said previously, like people were used to. You send stuff to a chrome shop, what you got back is that's the norm. They didn't know any different. And some of it looked great. And I'm not specifically trying to knock anybody either.

0:22:25 - (Joe Cherewan): But then when you'd sit, you know, take a turbo housing that I did versus a turbo housing that anybody else in the world did, a lot of them were used to this, that norm. We can cut corners here because people don't know any difference. So then when they'd see my work next to somebody else's, that's when the question became of, why doesn't mine look like that? Who did that? And I was just doing the same process.

0:22:51 - (Joe Cherewan): So there was that 20 years of prior work of, you know, the sounds that the abrasive is making. There is a smell that the metal is making weird stuff that you try to be like, well, there isn't much of a science to it. You're just grinding metal. But realistically, there kind of was. There was stuff that you pick up after years and years of doing it and to touch on something else. That's why I started getting kind of a little, making a few posts like that because I would get people that had done it for five years or five days and, and they expected me to walk them through the entire process. And it's like it could tell you 100% of the process that I'm doing with the same identical part and you're going to have different results.

0:23:36 - (Joe Cherewan): The difference is doing it for 2030 years.

0:23:39 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

0:23:39 - (Toby Brooks): And, and that's something. I mean, I'm the world's worst. Those. I learned a lot during my car build and made tons of mistakes along the way. And there's kind of that old adage, you can have it fast, you can have it good, or you can have it done right and you get to pick two of those. But if, if you cut corners on any one of those things, then, you know, if it's done fast, it's, it's not going to be cheap and it's probably not going to be. I mean, there, there's that aspect to it.

0:24:09 - (Joe Cherewan): Yeah.

0:24:10 - (Toby Brooks): And, and I certainly respect the fact that during this time, I mean, you're, it's almost like your legend is growing in these, these no time drag race circles in particular. Was that really the bulk of your work during this? Or were you also involved in like riddler builds or any other kind of high end car show stuff? Or was it just kind of primarily drag race?

0:24:33 - (Joe Cherewan): So I did, did quite a bit of sema stuff, which you can take that as, as whatever a lot of pri builds, what the bump in attention got was and it ended up turning negative is a lot of companies were sending us demo stuff. So if they were doing a pri booth or a SEMA booth, they wanted to be able to display their product on hand that was finished by us. And it backfired quite a bit because they would send us, or send me the demo units and then they would start offering that service that wasn't through me.

0:25:12 - (Joe Cherewan): And then I started getting really, really negative feedback of customers contacting me like, hey, I thought this came to you. We were told that such and such event that DCF did this, that Josie did this, and this is what you're sending to me. Like, I just paid 400 extra dollars for this and I had to really, really start addressing that. But realistically, I'd say what paid the bills. During the background of all that was doing industrial work in some medical grade, finishing still through DCF.

0:25:47 - (Joe Cherewan): We never really posted pictures of it. Some of it had a non disclosure stuff associated with it, but a lot of it was just boring. Nobody wanted to see pictures of 1000ft of handrail. There was a job that came in years back and it was for Miami beach. They were putting in all new stainless stanchions that you'd park your bike at along Miami beach. We did thousands of those in just a scotch Brite finish.

0:26:18 - (Joe Cherewan): Thousands of. And nobody wanted. Who wants to see a bunch of that? Or we did major Miami airport. We ended up doing every railing or piece of stainless that's in Miami International to this day. Is it cool? Sure. For the financial part of it, because that's where we got really, really good money. And that wasn't necessarily economy driven. It was to an extent, but that was all contractual stuff to where we knew this was coming in.

0:26:49 - (Joe Cherewan): Same with the medical stuff. The medical stuff kept us really busy and all. A lot of times kept us afloat, especially during the whole Covid stuff.

0:26:56 - (Toby Brooks): Sure.

0:26:56 - (Joe Cherewan): Where everybody was unsure what tracks going to be open or what, you know, what parts can we even get? And so there's a lot of the medical grade stuff that.

0:27:06 - (Toby Brooks): Well, I know a lot of places, you know, the billet parts industry is huge, and that's production work. Once you've programmed it, it's pushing a couple of buttons. And this is. No, I'm not disparaging my folks. That might be in the CNC industry, but this is different. Basically, you're being paid for your time. You can't automate this process. You can automate the creation of a $5,000 billet intake, but you can't automate the finishing of it to a medical grade mirror like finish.

0:27:36 - (Toby Brooks): So a lot of times, people don't realize they're not paying for your minutes. They're paying for your years, that years of experience that you invested in this process. And you mentioned earlier, there was a gratification to this, of knowing that someone was actively seeking out your work and seeing that finished product on something that can't be described as anything other than artwork with tubes all over the place.

0:28:00 - (Toby Brooks): But suddenly, apparently, at least from the outside world, you left that and kind of removed yourself from this industry that you had invested decades of your life. So kind of talk me through the process leading up to that. And what ultimately gave you the courage to step away?

0:28:19 - (Joe Cherewan): Well, it's a little bit of a loaded question, but I'll touch on it the best I can. It became another feeling of, just, what is this for? You know, I was extremely, extremely, and it sounds like, kind of boastful to talk about. I pissed a lot of people off by saying I was done, which was a first for me. There was a lot of people that were, like, flat out pissed. Like, I had gotten some messages like, are you shitting me? Like, where am I supposed to go?

0:28:53 - (Joe Cherewan): What led up to that was another strong feeling of being highly unappreciated by the employer side of it. It wasn't necessarily that I wanted to leave my customers high and dry. It was just another one of those things where it's like, you know, I've seen red flags like this before to where I've done this before, like, this is that same feeling again. But now I feel mature enough to be able to recognize those red flags before they really bury me.

0:29:24 - (Joe Cherewan): And that was part of my growth as an adult over the years of doing this to where now I recognized, this isn't. This isn't right for me at the moment. What gave me the confidence to do that? There really wasn't any. It was immaturely making a mature decision, I'm going to do something really bad or walk away. It wasn't the confidence of, I can do this because I know I can excel at necessarily everything I can. At the time, it was a feeling of, I'm going to do something really stupid and put myself in a really bad spot if I don't do that. Count to ten, and then being able to fall back on.

0:30:11 - (Joe Cherewan): I'm extremely headstrong and confident that I've been through worse. I've done worse. This is a little bit of a reset. I'm blessed to have the partner that I have, my fiance to where she looked at me like I was a little bit crazy, too. This is your life. Like, this is what you do. This is people know who you are. But then at the same time, she's able to recognize that if I want to learn about a pencil, I'm going to master that learning process of anything I put my mind to, which she hates sometimes, too, because I over involved in anything I'm interested in.

0:30:51 - (Joe Cherewan): But I did have the cushion of her, her support behind me, her knowing that, yeah, whatever, whatever next adventure he picked, it's going to be wild for a minute, but we'll pull through. Yeah. So that was. That was. It wasn't necessarily all confidence at first, but after that count to ten, period, it did.

0:31:14 - (Toby Brooks): Sure. I appreciate your humility, because when I first reach out to you, you're like.

0:31:19 - (Toby Brooks): You know, why me?

0:31:19 - (Toby Brooks): Like, what? You looked at some of my other guests, you know, Navy SEALs and former pro athletes. And I think what stood out the most to me in your story was, it seems like every shop I've ever encountered was founded by someone who's left another shop.

0:31:34 - (Toby Brooks): Right.

0:31:34 - (Toby Brooks): Like, and more often than not, it seems like on not so great terms, I think sometimes people can branch off and start their own thing. But whether it's a fabrication shop, paint shop, I would assume metal finishing. At some point you realize I'm making someone a lot of money and I've got the knowledge to do this on my own, and maybe people can make money for me. This wasn't that, though. You didn't decide that you were earning too much money for someone else and you were going to start your own metal finishing thing.

0:32:02 - (Toby Brooks): You pulled yourself out of the industry completely. What was the thought process there?

0:32:09 - (Joe Cherewan): It was another one of those. It left such a poor taste in my mouth of going through what, you know, like I said, what I felt was so similar again to where it was like I wanted. And we're coming up on. We just passed a year anniversary since I haven't touched a piece of metal, right?

0:32:30 - (Toby Brooks): And you sound like an addict.

0:32:35 - (Joe Cherewan): I don't. I was. I was addicted to metal finishing. I was addicted to being perfect, addicted to having that customer service that was unheard of. But I just. I still, to this day, don't have any interest in doing it. And I know that'll piss a lot of people off that are in the mutual circle that we're in. I almost got revved up the other day when a couple long term customers and turned really good friends were sending me some stuff, saying, this is what's going on out there without you. And I had to poke the bear a little bit and say, you know, don't, don't use my name behind that, please.

0:33:17 - (Joe Cherewan): Yeah.

0:33:18 - (Toby Brooks): Right.

0:33:20 - (Joe Cherewan): I haven't gotten to a spot where I'm ready to get back into it.

0:33:23 - (Toby Brooks): Right. Well, yeah. So let's talk about what you are doing instead. I mean, you've taken almost a maniacal passion for metal finishing and removed yourself from that context and maybe applied it in. It's a similar sentiment, I think, but in a completely different industry, completely different application of that same mental process. Right?

0:33:48 - (Joe Cherewan): A little bit, yeah. So a lot of people that still follow me know I'm huge into french bulldogs. So dogs have been a passion of mine for 20 years, breeding as a hobby. And we really, really got into showing dogs, and now we fly all over the world showing our dogs, created champion french bulldogs, which is a very strange hobby to have, but put that same kind of process and passion behind what I'm doing to where I'm going to show up somewhere. I don't want to be looking foolish. So you do the best you can with that.

0:34:26 - (Joe Cherewan): So that's what I've been. I was doing that during the whole process of my metal finishing, but now I've focused even more on that. We also started food trucks for my daughters, and that's gone really well. So, yeah, we've just kind of been taking it easy a little bit. I've been spending time with my family, which feels like I haven't done in ten years. And for the people that are mad that I'm not still doing it, I will tell you that that first couple months of not doing it, I had never slept better in my life.

0:34:58 - (Joe Cherewan): It was one of those just, I was so mentally invested of answering my phone at 910 o'clock at night because we're in such a, I like to call it a fast food or instant gratification society to where even if you're renowned, even if you're known as the best, even if this, that and the other, if you're not willing to take that call or be that guy that's giving somebody an answer, as redundant or remedial as it may be, they're ready to move on to the next person.

0:35:27 - (Joe Cherewan): So I was so, so, so invested in all that. Once I stopped doing that, it was one of the biggest weights that came off my back ever that I can remember.

0:35:37 - (Toby Brooks): Sure. How would you say you're different from this process and how have you emerged from this with maybe a different perspective than you had before.

0:35:49 - (Joe Cherewan): Well, one perspective is one you kind of brought up. If I do choose to go down this path again, it is going to be 100% solo on me. There is talks of that. I've been offered a couple really, really lucrative offers to relocate down south, which we're going to do anyways. I've had a couple of those unnamed customers that had unnamed budgets that said, whatever you need, you just say when. But I don't ever want to have to take that favor from anybody. I don't want to be back in somebody's pocket, whether they're a charitable thing or not. I just. I really don't have interest in doing anything for anybody else other than what I feel is progressing my life and my family's life.

0:36:43 - (Toby Brooks): Sure, that's a great perspective. I think sometimes we can get so invested in pursuing success that sometimes we lose sight of how we define that. And for some, that's recognition. And then you start to realize that that comes at a pretty steep cost sometimes. And success for me, at this point in my life means freedom and being able to spend time with the people that I care about. And it's not always just about the hustle and the grind.

0:37:13 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

0:37:14 - (Joe Cherewan): At the time, I had a young son that was super impressed that I was in youtubers videos that had millions of followers. And at the end of the day, it really didn't do anything special for me. I had already reached a point where I didn't need anybody's referral at anymore, you know?

0:37:30 - (Toby Brooks): Right. The classic sema build. Do this for me for free, and I'll get you exposure. Right.

0:37:36 - (Joe Cherewan): Yeah, I had a lot of that over the years. Ten years ago, it would have been onto something.

0:37:42 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. Right. Well, what advice would you give the younger you after going through what you've been through? What's maybe the most powerful lesson you've learned along the way?

0:37:53 - (Joe Cherewan): Yeah, that's a great question, Toby. What I would tell the younger me that's 2030 years younger is just keep being patient and trust the process. Because at the end of the day, if you don't believe in yourself, if you're constantly looking for validation, which I can say I personally was for many years, if you're constantly looking for validation in somebody other than yourself, you're never truly going to find it.

0:38:25 - (Toby Brooks): Now, I had told myself I wasn't going to pop in this episode and interrupt the flow of the conversation. I had told myself that perhaps you didnt need me mansplaining anything for you, but here I am again interrupting again, but I must im. A college professor in Texas chose a dog breeder who also happens to be a world class metal finisher in Minnesota. But through his face and in his words during our conversation, I see and hear a familiar lament.

0:39:02 - (Toby Brooks): The lament of the perfectionist, the relentless pursuit of better. And while that's admirable, downright regal in some ways, there's a darker side to it. Chasing perfection in order to achieve perfection can leave us feeling great, worthy film proud. But chasing perfection in order to gain recognition from others can leave us feeling lacking and empty and less than. Joe wrestled with that demon of perfection himself.

0:39:38 - (Toby Brooks): And since then, he's done the heavy lifting that it takes to admit when that pursuit of perfection comes from a good place or a bad place. And I think it's clear that he's come out the other side with not just the head knowledge but the heart wisdom that what he does and who he is is enough. And it always has been. Thank you for that reminder today, Joe. I needed to hear it.

0:40:07 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, that's valuable, I think. McCray says if you live for people's approval, then you'll die from their rejection. And that's kind of a great way to put it. I love music and the emotions oftentimes that it can represent that words can't. If we were to watch a montage of your life, what song would you pick to play in the background and watch?

0:40:29 - (Joe Cherewan): Holy smokes. I don't know how to answer that one because my musical library is confusing to most people. It'll go from sad a to Slipknot, you know, so, Mandev, you know, I honestly couldn't give you a direct answer on the spot with that one. I'd have to. That one? I wish I could.

0:40:51 - (Toby Brooks): No, all good. I have guests that will email me days or weeks. I've had one even months later, come back and say, hey, I picked my song. I have a mixtape, a Spotify playlist of all my guests for the songs that they pick. And I dropped that in there. So if you want to think that one over and get back to me, that'll be fine.

0:41:09 - (Joe Cherewan): I will. I will.

0:41:13 - (Toby Brooks): Well, I've already proved that I'm willing to barge in once on this episode, so I might as well jump in here again. Joe messaged me on Facebook the day after our interview. His song, nine inch nails every day is exactly the same. I wasn't familiar with it, so I gave it a listen on Spotify to get some insights on what made my latest guest tick. It's driving, reflective, introspective. It's an eclectic mix of somber piano kind of rolling underneath a driving drum beat.

0:41:44 - (Toby Brooks): Now, I'll avoid the temptation here to be either a psychoanalyst or a rock critic, but I will drop it in the becoming undone season two mixtape. It's there. Check it out. You're welcome.

0:41:55 - (Toby Brooks): Well, you kind of alluded to this a little bit, but what for Joe Chow remains undone.

0:42:02 - (Joe Cherewan): I'm coming back to metal. Everybody that truly knows me knows I'm coming back.

0:42:10 - (Toby Brooks): And the crowd goes wild. There are people, especially in the south, that are just cheering and happy that their race cars are going to look one or two.

0:42:19 - (Joe Cherewan): There was. I'm blessed to be surrounded by what I consider influential people. I like to to have my circle full of people that are not necessarily going to go do something for you, but they can benefit you spiritually or mentally also. Right. So I was able to be around a few people that had given me some insight early on. That said, there is an expiration date to this, and a lot of them were saying it was probably a few months to where they're going to move on, and that very well could be true. I had to take that into consideration that there might be some people that I lose that never come back. Like I said earlier, there were some people that were genuinely pissed.

0:43:05 - (Joe Cherewan): Like, I left them hanging. I never left any unfinished projects, but there were some people that were genuinely like, you're an asshole, dude. Like, where are we supposed to go? There is a guy that I started recommending that I've even publicly, like, said I felt bad for because he was one of the guys that was trying to pick my brain constantly and I was blowing him off. I was blowing him off. I was like, dude, I'm not going to sit on the phone with you for free and tell you how to do this.

0:43:35 - (Joe Cherewan): And what ended up turning out of that is blowing him off, put in his head that he's going to figure it out. It was motivation for him, and there was a lot of people that I blew off that were just the thing for me, maybe, or whatever the case may be, this guy actually turned that into some fuel. I'm going to prove this chill guy that I know started recommending him and stuff, and I referred a few long term customers to him, and he's been knocking it out of the park.

0:44:08 - (Joe Cherewan): There is a comeback coming. I don't know if it's going to be 25 or earlier, but it's all I know how to do. I'm talented at many things, but something I can pat myself on the back and say, I'm good at it. It's metalwork. That's what I've done my whole life.

0:44:26 - (Toby Brooks): Right. Famous quote that I've thought of over the years. Jim Rohn says, we are the product of the five people we spend the most time with. And I came across a quote today that really kind of shook me. A guy by the name of Vin Zhang, who's a communication expert, and he said along those lines, who will you not be because of the five people.

0:44:47 - (Toby Brooks): You'Re around right now?

0:44:49 - (Toby Brooks): And it was just kind of a reminder that we need to be purposeful about the people who are speaking to us, people that believe in us and those that don't and those that aren't in a position to draw out what's best in us. So I love the fact that you've got that community and you've got people that are still encouraging you. Well, I appreciate you dropping in. How can listeners connect with the work that you're doing right now with rotten frenchies and follow along with, with your exploits as hopefully some new stuff comes unfolding in the coming months and years?

0:45:22 - (Joe Cherewan): Well, my socials are still the same as my name, Joe Cheron, that you can find my LinkedIn or anything right off any of my socials. Rotten frenchies. Same, you say, go to my search my name. And that's what's coming up in the algorithms now is my dog program. A few world champion dogs. And that's done well. We even got a few of the race community people that have decided to come for me for dogs now, which is different.

0:45:53 - (Joe Cherewan): Yeah. Joe Chero on Instagram TikTok, although I don't post quite as much cool stuff anymore. That says appealing to everybody, but it's still there.

0:46:03 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, there's, there's nothing like some of those classic posts of, wow, is that an intake manifold or is that a piece of jewelry? Maybe it's both.

0:46:14 - (Joe Cherewan): Should be hanging up on the wall.

0:46:16 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, for sure. Well, Joe, thanks for dropping by.

0:46:19 - (Joe Cherewan): Thank you, Toby. I appreciate you having me on. Hey, everybody, I'm Joe Chirwan. I am undone.

0:46:36 - (Toby Brooks): I'm thankful to Joe for dropping in.

0:46:38 - (Toby Brooks): And I hope you enjoyed our conversation. For more info on today's episode, be sure to check it out on the web, simply go to undonepodcast.com ep 10 one. See the notes, links and images related to today's guest, Joe Cherwan. If you tuned into the show just to hear Joe's story, I am glad you're here. If you're looking for a new weekly podcast to help inspire your journey to success, and I hope you'll consider following the show, checking out some of the great stories I've already told.

0:47:08 - (Toby Brooks): Or even better yet, if you or someone you know has a story for the show, let me know about it. Surf on over to undonepodcast.com. click the Contact tab in the top menu and drop me a note. While you're there. Sign up for the newsletter. I would love to keep you informed on all the things going on with becoming undone. Coming up on the show next week, I'll have nursing professor and podcaster doctor Carly Dillard.

0:47:32 - (Toby Brooks): I'm also working on a new project to discuss the life, the lessons, and the legacy of former Arizona football head coach Dick tell me this and more, coming up on becoming Undone Becoming Undone is a nitro hype creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. Tell a friend about the show. Follow along on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn at becoming undone pod follow me Obij Brooks on X Instagram and TikTok.

0:48:00 - (Toby Brooks): Check out my link tree at Linktr ee tobyjbrooks. Listen, subscribe and leave me a review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts. Till next time. Keep getting better.