114 | The Life, Lessons, and Legacy of Dick Tomey Part 3: Coach Dick Vermeil Reflects on Coach Tomey's Impact

About the Guest

Dick Vermeil: A legendary American football coach renowned for his passionate coaching style and impeccable leadership. Vermeil has been named Coach of the Year at four levels (high school, junior college, NCAA Division I, and NFL) and has an illustrious career, including a Super Bowl victory with the St. Louis Rams. His extensive experience in football spans over decades, having coached and worked alongside some of the sport's most iconic figures.

Episode Summary

In this illuminating episode of "Becoming UnDone," host Toby Brooks dives deep into the storied legacy of Coach Dick Tomey, a revered figure in college and professional football. Speaking with Hall of Fame coach Dick Vermeil, Brooks unravels the unconventional and impactful journey of Tomey, known beyond his technical aptitude for his empathetic and transformative coaching style. The episode highlights how Tomey's genuine care and teaching shaped not only successful athletes but also principled individuals off the field.

Over the course of the conversation, Vermeil shares captivating anecdotes from Tomey's time at UCLA and the University of Arizona, underscoring Tomey’s unique ability to turn underdogs into champions. The discussion is interspersed with thoughtful reflections on leadership, legacy, and the understated art of connecting with and inspiring people to achieve their best. Through personal stories and insights, Vermeil articulates why Coach Tomey, although not having won national championships, left an indelible mark on so many lives.

Key Takeaways

• Leadership Philosophy: Dick Tomey was celebrated for his ability to coach people, not just football players, focusing on building individuals capable of exceeding expectations.
• Impact and Legacy: Tomey's influence extended beyond the football field, with many players and assistants crediting him with life-changing lessons that carried into their personal and professional lives.
• Empathy in Coaching: Tomey's approach combined toughness with compassion, setting high standards while demonstrating profound care for the personal development of his athletes.
• Underdog Champion: Throughout his career, Tomey thrived in roles considered challenging, consistently outperforming expectations and fostering a culture of winning against the odds.
• Respect and Admiration: Despite not having the glitter of championship titles, Tomey's true legacy lies in the respect and admiration he commands even years after his passing, as described by Dick Vermeil.

Notable Quotes

1. "Football isn't complicated. People are." – Toby Brooks reflecting on Tomey's coaching philosophy.
2. "He loved to coach the guy that wasn't quite good enough to be good enough." – Dick Vermeil on Tomey's commitment to all athletes.
3. "To be demanding and compassionate at the same time is a hard mixture." – Dick Vermeil discussing Tomey's unique coaching methodology.
4. "He was no pushover as a technician, X and O's, he was excellent." – Vermeil highlighting Tomey's technical prowess.
5. "He's special. He's choked me up. Think about it. Special." – Dick Vermeil fondly remembering Coach To

Transcript

0:00:13 - (Toby Brooks): I'm gonna go ahead and apologize to my friend and mentor, Maggie lacambra, right now. I'm sorry, Mags. I hope you'll still love me after you hear this story. All right, for everybody else, I will start with this. If you're listening, there's a pretty good chance we're friends here, right? Aren't we? And friends can be honest with each other, can't they? There's something I need to get off my chest that's been bothering me for way too long. 

0:00:40 - (Toby Brooks): I'm not proud of it, but for a time, Dick Tomi helped keep me alive. Oh, he didn't know it, but during one of the toughest chapters of my life grad school, his leadership and his compassion actually played a role in my survival. It was 1998. I was a wet behind the ears graduate assistant athletic trainer at the University of Arizona alongside two other gas Aaron Barnett from Purdue, Mitch Doyle from Iowa. 

0:01:10 - (Toby Brooks): I joined the Wildcats sports medicine team with big dreams of making a big impact. And when we hired in, we were told there were three spots available for us. One with football, one with volleyball, and one with gymnastics. After a week on the job, the staff assigned us to our teams. I had my fingers crossed. I was hoping to land that coveted football spot. Volleyball, a decent consolation. But gymnastics? 

0:01:37 - (Toby Brooks): I was terrified. Tiny girls, the words serious injury and risk of death literally written on a warning label on every single piece of equipment in the gym. Lord, please let me have something other than gymnastics, I prayed. As I've since learned, I shouldn't have dared God to give me what I didn't want. Because that's exactly what happened. You guessed it, I ended up with gymnastics. The very thing I prayed to avoid. 

0:02:05 - (Toby Brooks): But all wasn't lost. Over the next two years, that placement became exactly what I needed. I got to work with some incredible coaches and incredible athletes from for two full seasons. But in 2000, I finally got my shot at football. But let's not get ahead of ourselves here. We're talking about 1998, not 2000. As the non football GA, I had a different role. While my primary focus was gymnastics, I also helped head football athletic trainer Maggie lacombra with a few tasks to help out for football, for instance, on game days, I got to work the visitor sideline along with second year GA's Cindy Michaud and Lisa McDonald. 

0:02:44 - (Toby Brooks): If the visiting team needed anything, X rays, extra water, anything like that, we were there to coordinate and I enjoyed every moment. Yet as fulfilling as that was, that wasn't what kept me alive. Coach Tomi did. Let me explain now if you're not familiar, As a grad assistant I received free tuition for my master's degree and eventually my doctorate and a whopping tuition, eleven thousand dollar annual salary that was barely enough to scrape by. 

0:03:13 - (Toby Brooks): My wife Christy and I lived in the U of A married student housing Christopher City, a place so luxurious that it would be condemned and bulldozed the year after we moved out in 1999. We were surviving on discount groceries, one car, no cable and no cell phones. Christy likes to joke that we had plenty of helper but but couldn't even afford the hamburger to go with it. Those first two years especially, I remember two things. 

0:03:41 - (Toby Brooks): How many hours I worked and how hungry I stayed with just one car between us. I usually had to catch the city bus in Tucson and that meant early mornings and as a pretty poor planning and borderline poverty living grad student, I usually skipped breakfast. By mid morning my stomach would taunt me, growling, reminding me just how stupid I'd been not to scrape something together for breakfast. But as hungry as I was, we couldn't afford for me to eat out or buy lunch somewhere. 

0:04:13 - (Toby Brooks): Every once in a while I'd manage to splurge and spring for a hot dog at the McHale center concession stand that was open for lunch. Most days I just pushed through till dinner when I got home, surviving on a single meal. In the Tomy era of U of A football, during seasons Fridays and sometimes Thursdays for road trips, those were a highlight of the week. Coach Tomy ran a tradition called Scout Bowl, a scrimmage for red shirting players walk ons those not expected to play in the game. 

0:04:43 - (Toby Brooks): Starters and guys playing in the game on Saturday would cheer on their teammates who'd worked just as hard but had no shot at the limelight on game day. It was fun. But it wasn't just football. It was a celebration, a brotherhood camaraderie. A moment where every player, regardless of their role, got to feel valued. And what could make a celebration better? Snacks, of course. After the scrimmage, the players celebrated with candy bars, granola bars, Gatorade and water. 

0:05:12 - (Toby Brooks): As the host graduate assistant athletic trainer during the week, it was my job to order and collect those snacks from our concession storage, keep them from melting in the Tucson heat and have them ready for Friday's Scow Bowl. I'd usually pick up a case of Reese's Cups, case of Twix, case of Peanut M and Ms. On Tuesday, maybe some granola bars, and I'd stash them under My desk covered with a towel to keep any would be thieves away. 

0:05:39 - (Toby Brooks): Until one day that first year, that thief was me. One day my hunger hit harder than usual. I was desperate. I was light headed. I stared at those snacks sitting under my desk. Surely one pack of Reese's Cups wouldn't be missed. I snuck it out, tore into the wrapper, quickly devoured, threw away the wrapper and covered it in the trash, grateful for the relief, but deep down embarrassed by my actions. 

0:06:06 - (Toby Brooks): I wish I could say it was a one time thing, but sadly, more often than not, those snacks became a bit of a lifeline. For three years I've relied on them more than I'd like to admit. I never knew whose idea the Scout bowl was or who decided to pair it with smacks. But if I had to guess, in my mind at least it was all Coach Tomi Scalpel was a shining but not isolated example. Through his leadership, he regularly fostered a sense of family ohana that he'd learn on the islands. A culture where everyone, even those on the fringes, felt seen and valued and cared for. 

0:06:46 - (Toby Brooks): And looking back on it now, almost 30 years later, that culture didn't just sustain a team. Indirectly, it kept a broke grad student like me alive to work another day. So friend, I ask you, please don't judge me. I was weak, I was hungry, and I made a series of poor decisions. I know if Coach were around to hear me tell this sorrowful tale, he'd be ashamed of me. So in the name of making amends, I'd like to offer up a public apology to Coach Brennan and the U of A football program. 

0:07:20 - (Toby Brooks): I did the math. I didn't swipe candy every day. But just for the sake of argument or for simple computation, we'll say five times a week for 12 weeks of the season for three years. So let's see, that's 180 total candy units that I potentially lifted from 1998 to 2001. And back then they went for around 50 cents a piece. So we're at 90 bucks. Adjusted for inflation, that's $175. And it's only fair that I throw a modest 7% interest rate and we're looking at an ending balance of $245.45. For me to make up for the crimes of my past, I'll be contacting Coach Brennan and staff to make that donation to the U of A football program in hopes that I can long last make things right. 

0:08:13 - (Toby Brooks): I feel better already and hope you didn't mind me Coming clean at last. If you've stuck around this long, God bless you. I guess it's worth mentioning I'm Toby Brooks. In addition to being a podcaster, a speaker, an author, back in the 90s and early 2000s, I spent three years at the University of Arizona as a graduate assistant athletic trainer. I didn't know it at the time, but I was part of the staff for coach Dick Thomey's final season with the Wildcats in 2000. 

0:08:41 - (Toby Brooks): I'm quite sure that Coach Thomey didn't know it, but he helped sustain me during those lean years, and I'm not proud of it. But I can tell you without question, I'm thankful for the fact that I got to see one of the best coaches in the game teach not just football, but life. And over the past two weeks, with guests Lance Tomonaga in part one and Mike Flores in part two, we said that Coach didn't just build teams, he built men. 

0:09:06 - (Toby Brooks): But after thinking about it some more, I realized that that doesn't tell the whole story. He built people. In a world consumed with trophies and banners and titles, Coach dicktomy never won a national championship. He never even won an outright conference championship. But if you talk to the people who played for him, coached alongside him, or worked with him for a time, he'll tell you nobody shaped him quite like Dick Tomey. 

0:09:33 - (Toby Brooks): Sadly, we lost Coach Tomi to a brief but valiant battle with cancer in 2019. But I've been thinking about that, and him a lot lately. And as I've grown up as a professional, I've found myself aspiring to lead and looking deep into the leaders of my own past that I'd like to emulate. And if you're like me, Coach Tomi is at the top of that list. Famously, Coach was frequently quoted as saying, football isn't complicated. 

0:10:01 - (Toby Brooks): People are. I think the same could be said for just about any line of work. The job isn't complex, but leading people sure is, and I've not seen many do it better than Coach. In a profession dominated by wins and losses, Dick Thomey created a legacy that endures decades after he coached his last game. It's that legacy that I've been thinking about ever since. How did he do it? How did he inspire so many to follow him, to believe in him, and to carry his lessons forward, not just into their careers, but into their marriages, into their jobs, into their lives. 

0:10:39 - (Toby Brooks): These are questions I just can't shake. So I decided to do something about it. I've decided to dive deep into the Stories of one of the most transformational leaders I ever got the chance to serve. With you joining me in this journey, we'll get to hear from the people who knew him best. His players, his staff, his family. We'll explore the moments that defined him, the values he instilled in others, and the lasting impact he left on the game and on everyone he led. 

0:11:07 - (Toby Brooks): We've walked with him through those early years in Indiana, his first head coaching job in Hawaii, his time in Arizona, the legendary Desert Swarm defense, and that school record 1211998 squad. Finally, his return to the sidelines at San Jose State. I said earlier this would be about 10 episodes, but the deeper I get, the more I want to learn. So I make no promises. I'll backpedal on that already. We'll go as long as we need to go to keep learning. 

0:11:34 - (Toby Brooks): And in the process, I think we'll both not only get a refreshing chance, but to remember a legend. But we'll also learn what it takes to lead and love and serve our people better. You're listening to Becoming Undone and this, this is the life lessons and legacy of Coach Dick. Tell me a Toby Brooks passion joining me tonight, man who needs no introduction, hall of Famer, super bowl champion coach Dick Vermeil. Coach, thanks for joining me. 

0:12:15 - (Dick Vermeil): My pleasure, my pleasure. 

0:12:17 - (Toby Brooks): It's fantastic. This was really grown a lot. This idea started as really just honoring coach's legacy, talking to some players, and over the past few weeks have really had a chance to connect with some people that were instrumental in coach's life and subsequently how he's impacted others. So I want to start at the beginning and then that's really my reason for having you here is talking about coach before he went to Hawaii, before he went to Arizona. So take us back to UCLA. In the mid-70s, you had a tremendous young staff, tons of remarkable things, including a young Dick Tomey. How'd you first connect and what was your first impression of him? 

0:12:55 - (Dick Vermeil): Well, I first met Dick Thomy when I was an assistant coach at the Los Angeles Rams. And Chuck Knox would take us over to washing spring practice at USC and UCLA and spend a day with the coaches. And Dick was an assistant coach there at 4:00. Let's see, at that time it was Pepper Rogers. Pepper Rogers. And I got to know him just a little bit there with the rest of the guys. And then, you know, a couple of years later, all of a sudden I'm called back to be the head coach Pepper Rogers League. 

0:13:25 - (Dick Vermeil): I had a month and a half or A month, at least a month to go or more with the Rams with my responsibilities before. Before I could assume the head coaching position. So I kept seven of Pepper Rogers staff to stay there with me and assign Lynn Stiles to be the assistant head coach and take over and beat the defensive partner, which he already was, and then kept the other guys. And then a month and a half or so later I show up as head coach and there's Dick Tomey and staff. 

0:13:56 - (Dick Vermeil): And from then on we just grew together, you know, and it's really easy to grow together with a Dick Tony type personality type, coach type man. And I was so fortunate, very, very fortunate. And I'm so grateful today, many, many, many, many years later that I made the decision to keep seven of Pepper's ten man staff because second year we beat Ohio State. Number one team in the country, Rose Bowl. All of a sudden I'm pulled away to go and offer the opportunity to coach Philadelphia Eagles. Yeah, you know, that was the time I met Dick and really got to know him. 

0:14:31 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, tremendous. 

0:14:32 - (Dick Vermeil): Have a lot of good stories on Dick. Even two years he was amazing guy. He was very intense, very compassionate with his players, very loyal to his players. He didn't want anybody else to, to discipline. He wanted to be the guy. I can, I can remember being so tough on a guy that I would say, geez, nice. He defended the ball well, knocked it down and Dick would be upset. He should have intercepted it, you know. 

0:14:56 - (Dick Vermeil): And you know, he was a, an exceptional recruiter. Yeah, probably our best recruiter. 

0:15:01 - (Toby Brooks): Wow. 

0:15:01 - (Dick Vermeil): He could recruit. There's just no, I don't think he lost a player in the two years we worked together and not many after that with Tarragonia, you know. Yeah. And we'd have recruiting parties at my house on Sunday morning out Woodland Hills and we had a swimming pool and I'm. I'm sitting there helping my wife get the barbecue going and all that stuff and. And I look out the window and Dick is demonstrating pedaling techniques to the. 

0:15:29 - (Dick Vermeil): We have about 14 guys there, some of them defensive back, some of all positions, and he's backpedaling and he backpedals right into the swimming pool. Clothes, watch, wallet, everything. Okay, now that was funny enough, but only Dick Tunley would do this. He climbed out of the pool, went right over to the spot that he backed into and started lecturing again, acting like he even fell in the swimming pool. 

0:15:59 - (Dick Vermeil): He was amazing guy that way. Of course, you know, he was very successful there. And then like you already mentioned, went on to University of Hawaii for a number of years and did a great job there. And fortunately he got the opportunity then go to Arizona and he turned that program around. Yeah, he did an unbelievable job there. I don't think they ever really totally appreciated the quality of work he did there. 

0:16:21 - (Dick Vermeil): Sometimes administrators just don't know what they don't know. Yeah, but he did an unbelievable job there. And I was in broadcasting at that time. Right. So I would go in and spend three days in preparation. I'd go in on Thursday, watch him practice Thursday, be there Friday, do the game Saturday, fly home Sunday, and even got to stay close to Dick years after we weren't coaching together. And he did it as fine a coaching job as could be done at that place. 

0:16:47 - (Dick Vermeil): Miami, Nebraska, usc, all those schools. But he couldn't go to the Rose Ball. I think he went to bowl game six, seven times. In this era that we're in. When he leaves, they don't have a winning season for seven years. Okay. 

0:17:06 - (Toby Brooks): Let me jump in right here and add some data to what Coach Vermeil is saying. He's talking about the U of A years, specifically where Coach Thomey went 95, 64, 4, 59.51% from 1987 to 2000. He was named the PAC 10 Coach of the Year in 92, led the team to the highest ranking to finish the season in school history at fourth in 1998. And he remains the winningest coach in school history. And that 1993 team finished in the three way tie for the Pac 10 title. 

0:17:37 - (Toby Brooks): Somehow that wasn't good enough. I was there for that 2000 season. Expectations were high and our season started solidly. We opened the year on the road with a solid Utah team and won 17 3. We lost the next week to number 18 Ohio State, 1727 in a tough close game at home. The injury bug bit us hard and for much of the remainder of the season we were down to six and sometimes just five offensive linemen. 

0:18:06 - (Toby Brooks): By week six we had won a triple overtime barn burner against Washington State to move to 51 and entered the rankings at number 22 that week. Then the heartbreak began. We didn't win again the next three weeks we lost by a combined 10 points. I spent the game on the road at Oregon and the ER was one of our most impactful players who was injured on a dirty hit on a punt return that didn't even result in a flag. 

0:18:35 - (Toby Brooks): Our 51 season in the hunt for a conference championship ended a disappointing 56 losing to ASU and failing to get that aloha old berth in the process. Despite all he'd done, Coach tell me was being pressured to step down. If I ever find the gutless dirtbag who created Firedicktomey.com it was a classless and cowardly act that proved it's not the body of work but what a coach has done for you lately, that mattered. 

0:19:05 - (Toby Brooks): I left U of A at the end of that school year, and it was hard. I still loved the players who I'd left behind in Tucson, but I couldn't find it in my heart to cheer for that new regime. As it turns out, there wasn't much to cheer for anyway. U of A brought in John Makavic, who was run out of town midway through his third season, amassing a 1018 record. Mike Hankowitz took over and the team went 16 down the stretch. 

0:19:30 - (Toby Brooks): He was replaced by Mike Stoops, who wouldn't post a winning record until year five of his tenure. So altogether it was eight years before Arizona would go to a bowl game or have a winning season. After Coach Tomey left, the Wildcats had given up on a coach who had posted just three losing seasons in 14 years for three different head coaches who would take eight years just to get back above.500. And as much as that proved just how remarkable Coach Thome's tenure had been and how difficult sustained winning in Tucson might be in a conference with massively funded programs like Washington, Oregon, ucla, usc, even ASU to compete with year in and year out, that wasn't even the most remarkable thing. 

0:20:14 - (Toby Brooks): Just like at Hawaii and just like at UCLA before that. It was the mark Coach left on the people that mattered the most. 

0:20:24 - (Dick Vermeil): So that shows. But even more, I think if you talk to people that Dick coached, he was far more than just a football coach. He left an unbelievable positive impression on the kids and the coaches at work. For he was a. He loved to coach the guy that wasn't quite good enough to be good enough. Yeah, he loved the coach. That's so well said. That wasn't perfect yet. And he'd make him perfect and they would ascend. But he had remarkable ability to do things like that. He should be in the Collegiate hall of Fame. Yeah, they have a rule you got to win 600%. He's like 580 something. And that's the most unrespectful rule in college football. Yeah. Howard Snowberger. 

0:21:14 - (Dick Vermeil): Whenever you take over a losing program, you know it's going to take time to build it. And he built a program right. Today Dick would be. I Classified as a. A climate builder, a philosophy builder. There. There's all kinds of terms they throw around the National Football League. Like, you know, he can. He can build an atmosphere which people could win in. He just. Yeah, that was him. 

0:21:44 - (Toby Brooks): He could. 

0:21:45 - (Dick Vermeil): He didn't have to try. That was just him. I'm so fortunate I know him and work with him and then remain close to him all the way up to speaking at his funeral. I know I'm rambling, but, you know, I think so much of him. It's easy to talk about it. 

0:22:00 - (Toby Brooks): Sure. 

0:22:01 - (Dick Vermeil): Very. 

0:22:02 - (Toby Brooks): No, absolutely. I think one of the things that I've had a little trouble with with the documentary is, is the life before Arizona. That's where our paths crossed. Hawaii. There was a good book, but. But his story before that is a little less well told. And so I really appreciate your perspective. It's fantastic for a head coach to have. I mean, in the moment, it probably stinks to get your. Your staff poached by other programs, but that's what you want as a leader. You want your assistants and your coordinators going on. 

0:22:32 - (Toby Brooks): When he took that Hawaii job, what do you remember about that transition and how did he share the news with you? Could you give him any advice before he made the jump? 

0:22:39 - (Dick Vermeil): You know, I said, dick, it's not a real good job. He said, well, if he says coach, it was a good job, they wouldn't be hired. Somebody. Somebody be already there doing it. So he went there and he built a Dick Tomy culture within the Hawaiian culture. And he fit. Yeah, he fit. You know, and he loved it there. I visited him over there in the off season or speaking engagement over that, spend a night or two with him and just. 

0:23:05 - (Dick Vermeil): He just loved that place. It was in his blood. But it fit his profile as a person, as a philosopher. You know, Dick didn't really coach football. He coached people that play football, and he built that within the kids at that time. He. He. I think he. One of the few guys I know that enjoyed being the underdog. He liked the challenge of doing something with some situation or some person that hadn't done. 

0:23:36 - (Dick Vermeil): Yeah, he was a bastard. Yeah. The best I was ever around, I think, of making kids feel they were really better than they were. So they played that well. They played better. Yeah. Yeah. 

0:23:49 - (Toby Brooks): So many of Coach Tomey's former players and assistants talk about those lifelong relationships that they built with him. What do you think it was about him that made people stay connected long after the X's and O's and the specifics of football? 

0:24:05 - (Dick Vermeil): He was innately compassionate, you know, he couldn't help himself. He could always see what's really good at you, even when you've done some things wrong and things aren't going well. Maybe you're transferred from another college or, or this, or this coach on the staff couldn't get along with them so they moved to this position. He could always see what's best in you. Sometimes before the person he was evaluating or coaching, he would do it. 

0:24:32 - (Dick Vermeil): I saw him do that. He's in the two years that I worked with him physically day in and day out of recruiting trails and home visits and on the field, squad meetings, team meetings, one on one meetings. He just was as good as or better than anybody I ever been around doing that. And I learned from it. Yeah, I learned from him. I stole from it, you know, because he was a great example. Yeah, great example of how to communicate with people. 

0:25:01 - (Dick Vermeil): That doesn't mean he wasn't tough. Oh, he could be tough, but someone else better not criticize that guy his baby. 

0:25:09 - (Toby Brooks): For sure. You've no doubt been around some characters in football and I love the story you shared of the pool deck and climbing out and picking up right where you left off. Any other classic Dick Tomi stories that make you laugh to this day? 

0:25:25 - (Dick Vermeil): Very first recruiting chip home visit. One of Dick's guys out in Orange County. I'm Ed Cooch at ucl. I'm making a home visit. We stop, we have to eat before we get out. So we stopped 5, 30, 6 o'clock to eat dinner. And I think it was called Marie Counter's Pie Shop. That's where he wanted to stop. So I go in, I order a hamburger type thing for dinner. He orders a piece of pie, said, what are you having for dinner? I said, I'm having pie. I like dessert much better than I like anything else. So I always have it first, so help me God. He ate fruit, pieces of pie, I ate hamburger piece of pie. 

0:26:02 - (Dick Vermeil): Very logical. 

0:26:03 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. 

0:26:04 - (Dick Vermeil): What I like best. 

0:26:05 - (Toby Brooks): Hey, hard to argue with that logic for sure. 

0:26:08 - (Dick Vermeil): You know, Dick deceivably was very intelligent guy. Very. And he never acted like he was, you know, he never tried to, he never tried to portray himself as a genius, you know, but he very and especially on, on the left side of his brain. I mean, there was no way a player could. Connie, you could read what's on that player's mind or my mind or anybody else's good wit, but he was always on top of things that way. 

0:26:39 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, I had coach Dino Babers on last Week for an interview. He was a player for Coach Tomi, then worked as an assistant, worked his way up to offensive coordinator. And Coach Babers mentioned, like, when you saw into the depths of those blue eyes, you knew you were in trouble. Was there ever a moment when you thought about that intensity, that this Tony guy's a little crazy? In a good way? Of course. 

0:27:04 - (Dick Vermeil): I would see that from time to time when a defensive player during practice, I thought made a real good play and I would congratulate him and Dick would chew him out. He wasn't made good enough. In direct contrast with the head coach was saying, I'd have to practice. I. Dick, give the guy a break. He says, coach, I'm setting a stand up and he will meet it. He can do it. He can do it. One of the kids, I can't remember his name. One of the kids. A couple times I confronted him on that. He was on the practice was the kid that intercepted the ball in the Rose Bowl. It finished the game. 

0:27:39 - (Dick Vermeil): It finished the game that we won. Ohio State was number one team in the country. 

0:27:43 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. 

0:27:44 - (Dick Vermeil): And he was at. He was the kid that intercepted ball. Didn't knock it down, didn't bat it down. He intercepted it. And I had to think, even then I think, God, that's Dick Tomi. That's Dick Tony. He kept that standard just a little bit higher. Yeah. 

0:27:58 - (Toby Brooks): One of my favorite tomyisms is you're either coaching it or allowing it to happen. And he cultivates that excellence in you. And that trickles down from whether it's his coordinators all the way down to, you know, the. The student equipment managers. It doesn't matter. Everyone had to rise to that level. And I loved that about. 

0:28:15 - (Dick Vermeil): Everybody was important. Everybody in the program was important. Yeah. His coaching staff and his coaching staff was. Was a configuration of different personalities and different racial backgrounds and educational backgrounds and that kind of stuff. It wasn't all Ivy League and it wasn't all down here. It was a nice blend of different personalities and he could put them together as well as anybody I've ever been around. 

0:28:41 - (Dick Vermeil): Yeah. 

0:28:42 - (Toby Brooks): I think there's no doubt he adds some. Some old school aspects to his. His coaching. But I also think that that that translates and that transcends generations. Football changes from generation to generation. What do you think modern coaches could learn from Coach Tomi's approach to the game, in his approach to players? 

0:29:02 - (Dick Vermeil): Well, I. To be demanding and compassionate at the same time is a hard mixture. There's some guys that override the demanding side and demeaning side. You know, I once. I was a head coach at Hillsdale High School, and my assistant, John Gilmer, too, was coach the varsity. And his dad had been a head Coach, California, for 45 years. And one day his dad was there at Pakistan. I asked his dad, he said, 45 for coaching. 

0:29:32 - (Dick Vermeil): What's the most important thing he said to coach. Can't make a champ out of a guy you continually call a jump. Okay. And I never got that. Just. I'd never forgotten things John Wooden said to me or Chuck Knox or George Allen or Tommy Prothro or the good coaches. I've been around the Rod Dauhaus, the Terry Donahue, these guys that have been around, you know, the Mike Martins, Al Saunders, these guys. You know, you learn a little bit from everybody. Dick told me left a broad impression of a lot of things that I built into me because it fit me. 

0:30:08 - (Dick Vermeil): His way of dealing with people and his compassion, his passion for the game, but his compassion for the people, that was sort of in me as well. I. I know when he was Arizona, I really got to watch him coach. Not so much in white, because I was working. I got the. When I went into broadcast games, rare big games, because when you. When I went into college broadcasting, when we went to do big college games, I was with the number one guy. We were putting out national television, so we'd see him competing against the best. And you'd say, you know, these guys aren't quite as talented as who we're going to play this week, but they might beat him anyway. And they did. 

0:30:48 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. 

0:30:49 - (Dick Vermeil): You know, I think he's the only guy beat Miami and Nebraska the same year. Yeah. When they were really powerhouses. 

0:30:55 - (Toby Brooks): Right. 

0:30:56 - (Dick Vermeil): But those kind of things. It excites me to talk about it. You know, I think about him often. Yeah. About him. 

0:31:03 - (Toby Brooks): Well, yeah. I think in the years that have passed since his passing, his players, his coaches, his staff have really had a chance to. To kind of sit with and realize the impact that he had. And I think, speaking for myself, I know he had an impact on me at the time, but as I've aspired into leadership and doing other things, I realized just how the lessons he taught and the example that he gave really serves well. And it cuts across football. 

0:31:32 - (Toby Brooks): It's just people skills. 

0:31:33 - (Dick Vermeil): Yeah. Technically, I mean, he was no pushover. As a technician, X and O's, he was excellent. And he also recognized people that were excellent, and he would allow them to be excellent. He would provide them a player in the frame of mind to be coached to be pushed, to be demanded, to be disciplined, to be loved. You know, this had no problem telling Kenny loved it. That was him. 

0:32:03 - (Toby Brooks): Well, coach, I sincerely appreciate your time. I know you're a busy guy. Your backdrop is definitely more impressive than mine, I can tell you that. You've built a Hall of Fame career. You've impacted so many lives. Looking back, what did having a guy like Dick Thomey on your staff mean to you personally? 

0:32:21 - (Dick Vermeil): Well, I think the accumulation of Dick Comey and the. When you work, when you work with a Dick Comey, a Terry Donahue, Mike White, these kind of guys, or Rock Dalauer and these kind that, you know, these kind of guys, it doesn't leave you, it's inside you. And all of a sudden it adds depth to what you are as a teacher, a coach and a man. You know, And I will always be just so grateful that I had the opportunity to really know him and know him well. I knew him on his Vegas Twins. I knew him at his most discouraging losses. And he would always come out right here. 

0:33:03 - (Dick Vermeil): Yeah, he will always come out right there. And I never heard him blame anybody. I never heard him. Well, this junky, junkie, junkie. This, he cost us it. I never heard that kind of disguise. And I used to hear that from coaches all the time, especially me. Well, it's turb. He, he did that. He did. He's coach better. I never heard that from Dick. Yeah, yeah. Tarragoni was the same way. Yeah. You know, just like I heard Troy Aikman actually at Terry Donahue's Celebration of Life, say that, you know, Terry Donahue most positively influenced him in his life. And of course he was ever around. 

0:33:41 - (Dick Vermeil): Well, Dick, Tony did that for the same color of people, same color of players for many people as well. And. But they were on the same staff together. Yeah. Imagine how great that scat was. Yeah, yeah. But you know, Dick told me, as I, I would say, one of the top five people, men, coaches that I was ever around on the field. 

0:34:04 - (Toby Brooks): I need you to realize what high praise this is from a Hall of Fame enshrined and super bowl winning coach, considered by many to be one of the top five all time head coaches in NFL history. He also holds the distinction of being named coach of the year at four different levels. High school, junior college, NCAA Division 1 and the NFL. He's coached alongside legends like Bill Walsh, George Allen, Chuck Knox, Tommy Prothro, and he famously coached with his whole heart. 

0:34:33 - (Toby Brooks): Legendary St. Louis Rams wideout Isaac Bruce once said, quote, it was an Everyday thing like the moon going around the earth, he was gonna cry. End quote. I spent many of my formative years as a Cowboys fan rooting against Dick Vermeil when he led the Eagles. But I later loved to hear him call games with Brent Musburger. And I later cheered for him in St. Louis. And I celebrated his enshrinement in Canton and the Pro Football hall of Fame and think that through all those experiences, all those victories, all that impact, all those incredible people, Coach Vermeil at the tender age of 88, still recognizes Dick Thomey in his top five. 

0:35:16 - (Toby Brooks): Well, that's absolutely remarkable. 

0:35:20 - (Dick Vermeil): Men, coaches that I was ever around on the field. Hey, I'm coached with for someone that was after 28 different NFL head football coaches. So I have great admiration for him and I'm grateful for what he passed on to me. 

0:35:37 - (Toby Brooks): Well, Coach, thank you so much. One last question. I've been asking this of all my guests. Coach had a brief but valiant battle with cancer. He. He was taken too soon. If you had a chance to sit down with him and have one last conversation, what would you share? 

0:35:54 - (Dick Vermeil): Oh, I would share appreciation. I would share appreciation. I don't. I didn't have. I knew I had opportunities to visit with him when he was in, you know, in a tough situation, but I can't. I can't tell you what we were actually saying at that time. I jumped up, but I. I had such respect for him, and I appreciate what he passed on to me. Okay. What he gave to me. And he's special. He. He's choked me up. Think about it. 

0:36:32 - (Dick Vermeil): Special. 

0:36:34 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, that's well said. His. His impact goes well beyond the field for so many people, myself included. 

0:36:41 - (Dick Vermeil): It's a shame. It's a. It's a shame that he is not in the Collegiate hall of Fame. He's better football coaches than half of those guys in there. And they're all good coaches. 

0:36:49 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. 

0:36:50 - (Dick Vermeil): And it's just amazing. They have that. They. They've done the same thing. Albert Silver. Yeah. They've made a rule. They don't have guts enough to change it. And they don't have maybe enough people to really recognize who really did great job coaching. Name the last guy had ever lost. Was it losing seasons at Ohio State? Okay. They don't come around. There's a lot of guys that are in situations that are great coaches, but they're in great situations. Yeah. Nick told me could win. He goes to San Jose State. At the end of his drive with San Jose State. 

0:37:21 - (Toby Brooks): A lot. 

0:37:22 - (Dick Vermeil): You talk about a Tough situation his second year. There he goes. He wins nine games. Yeah, I don't know if they won nine games since maybe once. You know, it just amazing what he could do. 

0:37:34 - (Toby Brooks): Same thing in Hawaii. I mean, programs that were strapped for resources on the national scale. And Arizona. Yeah, resources are better than Hawaii or San Jose State, but if you look at how they compare to the rest of the PAC 10 at the time, they're still, you know, fighting with one hand tied behind their back. And you're right. Having success with those kinds of obstacles speaks to just what a phenomenal job he was able to do. 

0:37:58 - (Dick Vermeil): Won 112 games in Hawaii. He won 112 games here. Yeah. He was coaching a WAC conference coach of the year there. 

0:38:07 - (Toby Brooks): Well, Coach, thanks so much for your time. It's surreal for me to speak with you. Grew up listening to you, Cole. NFL game. So this is. This is a real treat for me. 

0:38:16 - (Dick Vermeil): Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. Do take care of yourself. 

0:38:18 - (Toby Brooks): Thanks so much, Coach. 

0:38:19 - (Dick Vermeil): You know, I'll just say this. Dick's son Richie, came to the hall of Fame when I was inducted. He was there. Yep. 

0:38:27 - (Toby Brooks): He'll be on the show soon. I'm finalizing details to get him on as well. 

0:38:31 - (Dick Vermeil): So. 

0:38:32 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. 

0:38:33 - (Dick Vermeil): Thank you. 

0:38:33 - (Toby Brooks): Thanks so much. 

0:38:34 - (Dick Vermeil): Take care. 

0:38:35 - (Toby Brooks): What an honor. And an incredible conversation with Coach Vermeil. His passion, his insight, and his deep respect for Coach Thome were on full display. Hearing his stories from UCLA to Arizona, from the sideline to the recruiting trail, really underscores the kind of leader and mentor Dick Thomey was. He wasn't just about football. He was about people. He built cultures, transformed lives. And less to the last. That's a rare gift. And as Coach Vermeil so eloquently put it, it's one that deserves far more recognition than it's received. 

0:39:08 - (Toby Brooks): As I reflect back on this conversation, I can't help but think about the power of legacy. Not the trophies, not the wins and losses, but the relationships, lessons, and the impact that echo long after that final whistle. Coach, tell me had it. Coach Vermeil has it. And if there's one thing to take away from this episode, it's this. The greatest coaches, the greatest leaders, aren't just remembered for what they did, but for who they helped others become. 

0:39:49 - (Toby Brooks): I'm thankful to Coach Vermeil for dropping in, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation. For more info on today's episode, be sure to check it out on the web. Simply go to undonepodcast.com ep114 to see the notes, links, and images related to today's guest, Dick Vermeil. What did those early years reveal about the kind of leader Coach Tomy would become? Join me next time when I sit down with four time super bowl champion Jesse Sapolu, who was there for it all. 

0:40:16 - (Toby Brooks): He'll take us inside those early Tomy years, the highs, the challenges and the moments that define Dick Thomey's coaching career before the world really knew his name. From there, we'll sit down with Coach Rip Shear, who worked with Coach Thomey at both Hawaii and Arizona. And we've got a long list of other guests, including coach's son Rich Tomi, as well as players and coaches who once shared the field and sidelines with him. 

0:40:38 - (Toby Brooks): So stick with me. We're just getting started. No way I'm gonna get this done in 10 episodes, but I don't care. We'll take what it takes. This and more. Coming up on Becoming Undone, the life lessons and legacy of Dick Tell me a Toby Brooks Passion Project Becoming Undone is a nitro hype creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. Tell a friend about the show and follow along on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn at Becoming Undone Pod and follow me at Toby J. Brooks on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. 

0:41:12 - (Toby Brooks): Check out my link tree at linktr.ee. tobyjbrooks Listen, subscribe and leave me a review at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts. Remember, you're either coaching it or you're allowing it to happen. Till next time friend. Keep getting better. It.