140 | From Refugee to CEO: Quang X. Pham's Journey of Grit, Toughness, and Effort

About the Guest

Quang X. Pham is a Vietnamese-American entrepreneur and former United States Marine Corps aviator. Initially arriving in the United States as a 10-year-old refugee fleeing a collapsing Saigon, Pham eventually became a decorated Marine Corps aviator. He is now the CEO of Cadrenal Therapeutics, a leading biotech company focused on innovative therapies. In addition to his professional endeavors, Quang Pham is a published author, capturing his incredible journey and insights in various books. His latest work, "Underdog Nation," conveys the themes of resilience and the power of seizing opportunities in America.

Episode Summary

In this enlightening episode of "Becoming Undone," host Toby Brooks converses with Quang X. Pham, a former refugee who rose through extraordinary circumstances to serve as a US Marine Corps aviator and biotech CEO. The discussion delves into Pham's dynamic journey—from navigating life as a Vietnamese refugee in Arkansas to achieving remarkable success in the Marine Corps and the biotech sector. Highlighting themes of grit, gratitude, and transformation, Pham shares how his early life challenges molded his path and helped him rise above expectations. 

Throughout the episode, Pham and Brooks examine the nuances of overcoming fear, integrating relentless action, and breaking through barriers that seem insurmountable. Pham emphasizes the significance of the ER principle—effort and result—advocating for a success mindset anchored in persistent action rather than passive aspiration. From recounting his love for baseball as a gateway to American culture to his ambitious professional ventures, Pham offers a paradigmatic illustration of the power of resilience. This episode is fully packed with discussions that encourage redefining setbacks into stepping stones and seeking out mentors across varied backgrounds.

Key Takeaways

• From Refugee to Resilience: Quang X. Pham illustrates a profound transformation from navigating life as a refugee to taking decisive steps that shaped his successful career in aviation and biotechnology.
• Overcoming Fear with Action: Pham emphasizes not letting fear stifle potential by focusing on action-oriented practices to achieve set goals.
• Effort and Results Principle: A core theme of the episode, the principle of aligning effort with expected results is explored as a pathway to personal and professional success.
• Global Sports as a Connector: The role that sports played in Pham's adjustment to American culture underscores the value of community and shared experiences.
• Mentorship Across Boundaries: Pham advocates for learning from diverse mentors—referred to as "admirables"—to foster personal growth irrespective of racial or cultural similarities.

Notable Quotes

• "I've never been a dreamer or a visionary. I was all about the mindset, which means taking action."
• "This is the number one country for underdogs. If you don't have the name, culture, or education, you could become whoever you want to become."
• "Learn English, learn how to speak, how to present, how to convince people. It's the greatest tool to be communicated."
• "Pursue your child

Transcript

0:00:03 - (Quang X. Pham): This is Becoming undone. That night in Saigon, I was about to become a country list boy. Going to America without knowing anybody in America, without knowing the language, the culture, the temperature. Next thing I know, I landed in Arkansas. And I've never been a dreamer or a visionary. I was all about the mindset, which means taking action. Don't talk about writing a book, write it. You want to be a pilot, Go practice. Take some flying lessons. You want to play better baseball, Go practice. You want to be a better golfer, go to the driving range. It just doesn't happen. You have to take action.

0:00:44 - (Quang X. Pham): This is Quan Xfam, and I am undone.

0:00:54 - (Toby Brooks): Hey, friend. I'm glad you're here. Welcome to yet another episode of Becoming Undone, the podcast for those who dare bravely risk mightily and grow relentlessly. I'm Toby Brooks, a speaker, author, professor, and performance scientist. I've spent much of the last two decades working as an athletic trainer and a strength coach in professional, collegiate and high school sports settings. And over the years, I've grown more and more fascinated with what sets high achievers apart and how failures that can suck in the moment and can end up being exactly the push we needed to propel us on our paths to success.

0:01:23 - (Toby Brooks): Each week on Becoming Undone, I invite a new guest to examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. I'd like to emphasize this show is entirely separate from my role at Baylor University, but it's my attempt to apply what I've learned and what I'm learning and to share with others about the mindsets of high achievers. Well, y', all, it's great to be back after taking a couple of weeks off and getting a little overrun with homework assignments and work that I had to get done on my own, it's good to be back in the chair behind the mic.

0:01:59 - (Toby Brooks): What does it mean to come undone only to reassemble stronger? Today's guest, Quang Xfam, knows that story firsthand. From a 10 year old refugee fleeing a collapsing Saigon to a decorated US Marine Corps aviator and now a biotech CEO fighting to save lives, Kwong's journey is a masterclass in grit, gratitude and grit. Again, in this episode, we talk about duty, sacrifice, and the surprising power of owning your own story, even when the odds are stacked against you.

0:02:30 - (Toby Brooks): We talk about the, er, principle, effort and result, and about why excellence isn't about titles or background, but instead about showing up day after day with clarity and courage. This is not just a story about the American dream. It's about doing the work, taking the shot, and owning the result. Let's dive into episode 140 with veteran and entrepreneur Quang X Pham. Hey, friends, Greetings, and welcome back to Becoming Undone, the podcast for those who dare bravely risk mightily and grow relentlessly. Join me, Toby Brooks, as I invite a new guest each week, where we examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to. To falling into place.

0:03:08 - (Toby Brooks): Over the years, one of the common themes in the show has been big pivots, big shifts, and in particular, athletes and military folks seem to have gone through really some similar processes in that transition out of the early part of their career. So I'm thrilled to have Quan Xfam joining us today, and he's an entrepreneur and an author, and looking forward to hearing your story. Quan, thanks for joining me.

0:03:32 - (Quang X. Pham): It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

0:03:35 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. So I loved reading through your speaker kit. There were a lot of great things in there, I think a lot of similarities between what we talk about in the show and the writing that you've done and certainly some of the work in your past. You've lived what you call the American underdog journey from a child refugee to a Marine Corps aviator to now biotech CEO. When you look back, what would you say is the single most defining moment that helped shape how you see yourself today?

0:04:03 - (Quang X. Pham): You know, just over 50 years ago, April 1975, Saigon, the former capital of South Vietnam, was falling apart. I just finished the fifth grade, 10 years old, three sisters, father, late father was a senior South Vietnamese Air Force pilot trained in the United States starting in the late 50s. So long history, back with the Vietnam War. And my mother was a school teacher. And on that dark Saigon, April 1975 Morning, our lives change.

0:04:34 - (Quang X. Pham): And so that was the first turning point where, you know, to help define who I am, I became, you know, an American citizen, a Marine, an entrepreneur. But that night in Saigon, I was about to become a country list boy. Going to America without knowing anybody in America, without knowing how language, the culture, the temperature. You know, to me, Americans were advisors. They were big. They smiled. They were there for the war. Then towards the end, they started to disappear.

0:05:06 - (Quang X. Pham): Next thing I know, I landed in Arkansas and May in 1975.

0:05:11 - (Toby Brooks): What a culture shock. So how old were you when this all went down? 10 years old.

0:05:18 - (Quang X. Pham): Yeah, 10 years old to what I saw define my life, because for the 10 years I lived, especially the last three years in Vietnam, the latter part of the Vietnam War, when the Americans had withdrew in 72, and then the POWs like the late Senator John McCain came home and they signed the peace accord. So the war kind of was quiet. And then little did we know the North Vietnamese was planning that big invasion in saigon fell in 55 days. So the big part for me was I saw my father, took care of his family, you know, amid his country falling apart, his president had fled, his commanding officers were gone, our neighbors were gone.

0:05:56 - (Quang X. Pham): He put us on that second flight out of Saigon and he stayed. So first of all, I saw him do the duty. Second part was the surprise that he didn't come with us. And it took 17 years before I saw him again. So I think a sense of duty, a sense of pride, and I followed his footsteps.

0:06:13 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, fascinating story. What would you say your biggest, wildest dreams were when you were 10, 11 years old, first setting foot in Arkansas, Literally a world apart culturally, all, all of those transitions. What, what did success look like to 11 year old Quang?

0:06:32 - (Quang X. Pham): Success looked like lining up for a meal each day and every day going to the, the refugee camp center. When we listened to BBC News to find out what happened, we knew the war had ended, the communists had won them. But there were hundreds and thousands of families torn apart, didn't know where their parents were. In our case, my mother didn't know where her husband was. She came to America with four young kids, 11, 10, 7 and 3.

0:07:01 - (Quang X. Pham): Didn't have anybody. So the second instance that I saw that shaped my life when my mom made a decision when we were in Arkansas that they wanted us, you know, to leave the camp because so many people were leaving Vietnam by boat still. So we had to have an American sponsor or we could have gone to Australia, Canada and France because Vietnam had been a colony of France. So I already had four years of French as a second language. So we had aunts, uncles, relatives, probably about 25, 30 family members. And at the last minute she said, no, we don't know anything about America, but the French will never see you kids as equal. So we're going to America, we're staying. Since you have a lot of sports and athletes and I never was a professional. I didn't play college sports. I did play high school basketball.

0:07:48 - (Quang X. Pham): I did play Little League baseball. 1976, I joined Little League baseball, started practicing my English, made a lot of friends, didn't get one hit. 1977, I became a starter, hit the game, winning hit, we win the league, became a Little League all star.

0:08:03 - (Toby Brooks): Wow.

0:08:03 - (Quang X. Pham): So transformation. So sports was such a big part of my early years in America. Made a lot of friends and I think I learned that the playing field was equal and the kids who got picked on pickup basketball game, pickup football games in the neighborhood, and eventually the teams, they got picked, you know, it didn't matter what color you were. Can you play? Can you produce results?

0:08:25 - (Toby Brooks): Quang is just 10 years old when the conflict in Vietnam upends his entire world. His family is torn apart as his mom bravely immigrates to America along with his three sisters. While his father stays behind, he finds himself in Arkansas, not knowing the language, the culture or the climate. However, what he did know was what he saw in his father. Living out the virtues of duty and pride. And although it would be 17 years until he'd see his dad again, the impact made an indelible mark, ultimately leading to a career in the US Marine Corps.

0:08:59 - (Toby Brooks): However, it would be years of adjustment before any of that would even be possible. Starting first in a refugee camp, then consider the prejudice and racism commonly encountered and endured by Vietnamese immigrants. Even at the tender age of 11, however, Quang found solace and connection in the level playing fields of, well, playing fields of Little League baseball in the basketball courts where he'd compete in high school.

0:09:26 - (Toby Brooks): You find yourself in the American military as a Marine and eventually as an aviator. Talk me through that process from how you go from a refugee to deciding to be a part of the American military.

0:09:38 - (Quang X. Pham): Growing up in Saigon, I lived in military base the last three years of my life. So I was a military brat. You know, my father was a senior pilot. I saw planes take off, land, arm, refuel aircraft shot down, parachutes, the whole thing. When I got to America, I never imagined that America would trust, you know, a 5 foot 8 kid out of high school going to UCLA, barely 140 pounds dripping wet, that America would trust me to allow me to go to Obscan school, allow me to go to flight school, earn my wings, and then fly troops in the Persian Gulf War and then off an amphibious ship and become an aircraft commander and take charge and serve 10 years between seven years on active duty and another, actually five years in reserve. So it was tremendous. And that's how the journey was.

0:10:24 - (Quang X. Pham): It was a journey to pursue my childhood dream. But I look back, it was one, it was to pay back for my citizenship and honor my family. The flying was bonus. I never became an airline pilot, but the flying was what I wanted to do as a kid. And just looking back, it's just an incredible country. This is the number one country for underdogs. If you don't have the name, if you don't have the culture. If you don't have education, if you don't have money, you could become whoever you want to become.

0:10:50 - (Quang X. Pham): If you focus on effort and results and define your own success, you know, and be realistic about your, your dreams. And I've never been a dreamer or a visionary. I was all about the mindset, which means taking action. Okay, just don't talk about writing a book, write it. You want to be a pilot, go practice, take some flying lessons. You want to play better baseball, go practice. You want to be a better golfer, go to the driving range.

0:11:17 - (Quang X. Pham): It just doesn't happen. You have to take action.

0:11:19 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, I love just that mindset and the ownership. I love the idea that sports is outcome based. It's not related to, in some ways it can be, but eventually the talent rises to the top. And I've seen even in Little League instances where who your dad is or who the politics are, yeah, that can influence it. But ultimately, if you're a talent, you will find a way to be on the court or on the field.

0:11:43 - (Quang X. Pham): So as I became an adult, I, I follow Ichiro. He was a little bigger than me. It was just amazing career. He just got into the hall of Fame. But the biggest, I grew up LA Dodgers fan, you know, listening to Vince Goie.

0:11:56 - (Toby Brooks): But the game right now is at the plate, high fly ball into right field.

0:12:04 - (Quang X. Pham): She is go. In a year that has been so improbable, the impossible has happened. I saw the World Series last year and you know, to see the Dodgers and look at all the different ethnic players, it's just a, you know, sports is just beyond what it did for me as a kid. But to see how global sports, bringing people together, just watching 60,000 people at Dodger Stadium, screaming.

0:12:43 - (Toby Brooks): I was born in LA. My mom was a huge Dodgers fan. So my early, earliest memories of baseball were Vince Gully, you know, Steve Garvey, Ron say, Fernando.

0:12:53 - (Quang X. Pham): Yes, yes.

0:12:54 - (Toby Brooks): And so I certainly connect in that regard. I also hear some Kobe Bryant in you and the idea that you develop excellence through action and that, that Mamba mentality certainly is. I equate that with la.

0:13:07 - (Quang X. Pham): And he was kind of the, you know, when Kobe passed away, it was a sadness in me because I flew helicopters for the Marines in Orange county and I had flown over those LA areas up to 5, up to 101. And we were flying there just before the la riots in 1992. So I knew exactly where he had traveled from Orange county, through downtown la. I've landed on, I've hovered over the lapd because they couldn't take a Marine helicopter. We practice our landings, but we could never put our whole helicopter down £25,000. And the day I heard of his passing, you know, for me, as it a fan of the Lakers, of Kobe, but also as a helicopter who's flown over Southern California for a decade, it was a sad day. And it was a sad day.

0:13:53 - (Quang X. Pham): Learning it was a single pilot aircraft flying in through. I understood it. I never opined about it, but it was challenging. It was a challenging time for me just to hear what had happened and then just to find out the findings over the ensuing months and years.

0:14:08 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, for sure. As I read your bio, I am moved by the magnitude of the transitions in your life from refugee to Arkansas. From Arkansas you end up at ucla. From ucla, you end up in the Marine Corps. From the Marine Corps, you end up in biotech. Those are. Those are not small steps. What would you attribute your bravery in making those huge transitions and jumps? And I mean, even. Even from the humble beginnings where you said success consisted of standing in line and being fed to now being in charge of incredibly important work, that's not something you typically see in that order of magnitude.

0:14:55 - (Quang X. Pham): I did meet the late coach John Wooten in 1985, my second year at UCLA. He came to do his book tour called they call me coach. 10 years after he retired and won the last of his 10 national championship. I did have dreams of playing point guard for U, Silly. So I didn't achieve everything in my life. Okay, but the, you know, it was the. Everybody gets scared, but you can't let fear hold you back. And whether that fear is safety, whether that fear is the fear of failure, but most people even are scared of trying.

0:15:29 - (Toby Brooks): To fear. Kuang hits the nail on the head here with what he sees as the killer of dreams. Not circumstance, not lack of resources, not competitors. Fear. Fear kills more dreams than failure. Fear of safety, even just the fear of failure or the fear of trying. And the opposite of fear isn't just courage. It's action. Consider this scene from We Bought a Zoo and the idea of just 20 seconds of courage.

0:16:00 - (Quang X. Pham): What happened with you and Lily? I don't know. I guess I didn't listen to something.

0:16:07 - (Toby Brooks): She told me or something.

0:16:10 - (Quang X. Pham): I mean, I liked her.

0:16:13 - (Toby Brooks): It's like you embarrass yourself if you.

0:16:15 - (Quang X. Pham): Say something and you embarrass yourself if you don't. You know, sometimes all you need is 20 seconds of insane courage. Just literally 20 seconds of just embarrassing bravery. And I promise you something great will come of it.

0:16:39 - (Toby Brooks): Sometimes all it takes is 20 seconds. Other times it could be months or even years. Regardless, Quang understood the value of not just having dreams, but being brave enough to pursue them. And that was perhaps no more obvious than in his pursuit of his dreams in the US Marine Corps.

0:16:57 - (Quang X. Pham): When I got through Officer Candidate School in the Marine Corps in the summer of 1986, and you got to remember this is 11 years after the Vietnam War, there were a lot of pain, a lot of reticence, a lot of bitterness. And there were a few Vietnam vets who were still in the Marine Corps. And I'm not sure that all of them were pleased that I was there.

0:17:13 - (Toby Brooks): Right.

0:17:14 - (Quang X. Pham): Trying to become an officer and an aviator. It was also the summer that the movie Platoon came out and Top Gun on the other side. Very positive, patriotic platoon. And they were certain portrayal of the Vietnamese in the movies. And you got to remember ucla, Francis Ford Coppola went there, a lot of movie Hollywood folks, and there was this certain portrayal of the Vietnam War, specifically that South Vietnamese military. So I went to officer can school with a chip on my shoulder because my father was still being captive and. And they're teaching us that we didn't lose the Vietnam War. The South Vietnamese were cowards.

0:17:48 - (Quang X. Pham): They were inept. And so I had this chip that I was not going to be the kid whose parents were from South Vietnam to fail what then I believe was the hardest test in the Marine Corps. And so I, once I completed that, I was still scared of trying to think, but I never. I never had a fear of failure again. I think the second part was I noticed that everybody who was successful in America, starting with Hollywood, in the Marine Corps and in business, as I got out, were very good communicators.

0:18:21 - (Quang X. Pham): They had master, not only speaking English, but they're able to present, articulate. And so, you know, I get asked all the time, what would you tell a new immigrant? I would never say, you know, go learn how to be ABC or save money. I say, well, learn English, learn how to speak, how to present, how to convince people. It's the greatest tool to be communicated. And I strive really hard, starting with time in the Marines. And so every time I made a leap from Marines to biotech salesman, from salesman to entrepreneur, and from entrepreneur to taking a company, informing everything to take it public on the Wall street was, yes, you get scared.

0:19:00 - (Quang X. Pham): Yes, you know, the fear of the unknown, but you still go through it. Yeah, because it's part of the DNA. Some people are born with it. I believe I train myself in emulating. And I think in my book, I write about people who, you know, admire, but I've never met. And so I watch what they do. I listen to their tape. Colin Powell, the late general, the late Fred Smith, the founder and CEO of FedEx who just passed away.

0:19:28 - (Quang X. Pham): Other biotech CEO that didn't have the traditional track, you know, 25 years in corporate America or 50 years or 30 years in the military. They had, you know, I'll call it alternative career tracks. And that's what I try to emulate.

0:19:42 - (Toby Brooks): Right.

0:19:42 - (Quang X. Pham): I call them the admirables. People who admire, who I've never met.

0:19:46 - (Toby Brooks): Admirables. I love that. That's a clever take, but certainly one that resonates. I look for exemplars right now with AI being what it is. On the campus where I work, it's almost impossible to keep up. Seems like there's a new tool or a new platform, something every day. And so it's almost impossible, and some might even say it is impossible for one person to keep pace. Whereas if you can find those exemplars who are embracing and using things well, that's really a way to fast track your learning so that you're not spending time on dead ends and things like that. So I love that. The idea of having admirables in your life, in your experience, what would you say is the biggest myth about success that keeps underdogs from breaking through?

0:20:31 - (Quang X. Pham): The biggest myth is role model. Growing up, they said, well, you have to have a mentor. You have to have a role model, somebody who looks like you that's made it. Well, I had zero. We were the first Vietnamese people, but we were. There were Vietnamese people in America, mostly students and thousands of American servicemen that had arrived before the war ended. But that first wave in 1975, we didn't have.

0:20:55 - (Quang X. Pham): We didn't have CEOs, we didn't. We didn't have entertainers to look up to. We didn't have religious leaders, you know, so I think that was. That's one of the biggest myths and fallacies. You have to have a mentor or a role model because I had none. And they had to look like you. Right? They have to be your same race. They could empathize with you. No, my admirables were African Americans, you know, a lot of Jewish, successful Jewish people.

0:21:22 - (Quang X. Pham): I lived in Southern California. I had Jewish friends and did business. They weren't from my religion, they weren't my people, they weren't Vietnamese. So I think that's, that's probably the biggest one, I tried to find people who are kind, successful, good communicator and gave some time back to either helping people or their community. Those are the kind of people that became my admirables.

0:21:42 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, I love that. That really opens up a lot of doors of opportunity where you can pick and choose and identify with again, the outcome. Going back to kind of the athlete example, if someone can be successful in business with integrity, it doesn't matter necessarily what their background is there, they still have some character traits that I can learn from. I love that approach now.

0:22:05 - (Quang X. Pham): I think, you know, when I looked at role model, I mean I was a gym rat and I still get into the Y and play full court basketball at my age, like I said, I was very proud. I was very happy I was at Madison Square Garden during that run of Jeremy Lynn's sanity. So I got to see him play. And then for those five or six games in early 2012, it was amazing. And you know, it is one sport professionally that you don't see a lot of Asians, Asian Americans are certainly in China and outside of America, but not in the NBA. And so when I saw him play, not only he's not Vietnamese, I just, I, I was just amazed.

0:22:47 - (Quang X. Pham): And for those six games in that, in that season, he put up numbers like Kobe, like.

0:22:54 - (Toby Brooks): Right? Yeah. Well, you kind of alluded to this in passing in one of our previous questions. You have what you call the er approach, effort and results and it's kind of at the heart of your work. Can you share how you developed this philosophy and how maybe you've tested it and piloted it in your work today?

0:23:14 - (Quang X. Pham): Yeah. So, you know, in my professional career in the Marines, work at Genentech and other pharmaceutical company, I would often find myself, if I didn't get the promotion or my peers, first you get is I deserve this. He or she got it because they knew somebody. It was never a look at yourself, myself included. And so I started looking back and say, what, what, what, what was it that I wanted? Did I really want that promotion or was I envious or jealous because somebody got promoted into a job that I didn't even really want?

0:23:46 - (Quang X. Pham): It was just deem a success. You're with an organization and in the military you get promoted every couple years. In the private sector, it doesn't follow every couple years and you get promoted to lieutenant or captain or major or you know, corporal, that sergeant. So I was going down that track and I said, wait a minute, take a look at yourself. And I was in pharmaceutical and there's the medical, the er, the emergency room.

0:24:09 - (Quang X. Pham): I started looking at, well, what were my results, what were my sales numbers, what kind of effort did I put into my job? Did I do X amount of sales call? Did I produce? Why am I feeling that I missed this promotion or somebody got it because of favoritism or something? And so I put myself in that mode first. Then I started seeing some peers that were doing the same thing. Kind of the self pity, loathing and complaining and you know, slowly over 20 years, I saw the same with the entrepreneurial world. Well, I, I didn't get my business plan funded. How come this person got X million when we had the better drug or the better device or the widget? Then I went back and saw their presentation, I saw the way they presented and I saw the effort.

0:24:53 - (Quang X. Pham): It didn't match up. And so I started thinking about, well, people panic and instead of looking at themselves, they blame either the economy, their company, their manager or circumstances. So I start thinking, well, before you do that, just go to the ver, right, because anytime you call a doctor's office and nobody picks up the phone, you get that message, right? If this is the emergency, dial 911 or get yourself the emergency. So I started putting the little acronym together and I said, well yeah, just go back and look at your effort and your result to see if it led to the success.

0:25:24 - (Quang X. Pham): But beginning by defining what success meant.

0:25:26 - (Toby Brooks): To you, I'll hop in here because I think this concept is one that I've certainly learned over the past couple of years and frankly, still learning today. In so many aspects of life, it's tempting to couch our failures to get ahead or to see other success as coming at our expense. It's tempting and frankly, easy to write off my shortcomings as being outside my control or due to someone else's unfair advantage.

0:25:52 - (Toby Brooks): However, I define that and no lie, there certainly may be some of that, but what I discovered was that that anger or resentment or jealousy just has not served me worse. It made me the kind of person people didn't want to be around. A complainer looking to gripe about how unfair life is instead. I love the alternative quangsi here. Taking ownership of our effort and the things we can control makes us teachable, not to mention the kind of person people might actually want to be around.

0:26:23 - (Toby Brooks): At the same time, we also have to own the effort that we put in. I tell my students this all the time and I hope I live by it as well. Don't give a 2 effort and expect 10 result matter of fact, there may be times when we give a 10 effort and get a 2 result. And frankly, that's a. Okay. Right now today I'm fighting for my academic life in the advanced neuromuscular exercise physiology class that I'm taking right now.

0:26:47 - (Toby Brooks): And my midterm showed it. And if I'm honest, I was giving about a 6 effort and I got a 7 result. So why would I be mad about that? An old piece of wisdom comes to mind. Don't be angry about the results you didn't get from the work you didn't do. I could have worked harder and I probably would have done better. And I have to live with that. For Quang, it has consistently been about doing the work, trusting the process, and operating in faith that those results were coming sooner or later.

0:27:21 - (Quang X. Pham): And I'll finish on this note on this question. Answer your question is that for me, early years with success was the Vietnamese community. As you know, after five or ten years in America, they saw young kids like me, success to the Vietnamese community and affected, you know, somewhat. You were supposed to go to college and go on to medical school or pharmacy or become an engineer.

0:27:41 - (Toby Brooks): Right.

0:27:42 - (Quang X. Pham): So when I entered the Marine Corps, it not only surprised my non Vietnamese friend, it surprised a lot of people that knew my family, even though we left that life behind after the war, like, what are you doing? You know, this is not. And so I fought off what culturally, you know, and a lot of my friends end up getting very good jobs early in their lives, making a lot more money as I made as a Marine.

0:28:09 - (Quang X. Pham): But, but success to me was not how they saw, you know, the young kids in our community in the early years.

0:28:16 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, I love that approach. There's definitely alignment with what I've taught and what I'm learning. I talk a lot about strategic and purpose, relentless and pursuit better every day. And I was actually just using this this week. So it's, it's fun. Mention a promotion. There's something coming up for me that I'm interested in. And I think the timeline's about 10 months. And with AI, we can now have a trusted advisor, completely confidential.

0:28:40 - (Toby Brooks): So I went in and generated a Gantt chart, a growth plan. Like, I want to be the best possible candidate I can be 10 months from now for X role. What can I do? Uploaded my cv, it looked for holes, things that I could do to address potential deficiencies. And like you said, yeah, maybe someone else gets it, but I can't control that. I can control the controllable. I can max out myself. I'LL be better in the process, whether I get it or not. And it aligns, I think, really well with your idea of your efforts and your results. And at the end of the day, once, you know, you've put those hours in the gym, the results will be what they may, and there's no shame in that whether you win or lose.

0:29:18 - (Quang X. Pham): And I use the same principle not just in our company, in my professional life, but also when I have fun. And one of my passion is golf. And it's. I think most people would tell you that it looks really easy on tv. The PGA professionals make it look good, so the lpga, but it is very difficult to master or even be average. And so I think for years I would try to enter amateur competitions and not do very well.

0:29:46 - (Quang X. Pham): I would just go to the driving range, watch some videos until about five years ago, I started putting myself in those pressure situations. And this is just, you know, weekend amateur golfers having fun with friends, playing in, you know, in your local tournaments or your club tournaments. And it was when I put myself in those situations more often that the body didn't feel like you go up and play tournament golf. It just feels a lot different than playing with your friends. So the more I did that, the better I became under pressure. And it was not in front of thousands of people, just in front of, you know, half a dozen friends. But you have to put yourself and your effort into that if that's what you want as the result.

0:30:27 - (Toby Brooks): Sure. And seems like there's a lot of themes that keep cropping up, but that's another Kobe Bryant ism where he says, don't practice it until you get it right. Practice it until you can't get it wrong. And the fact that fear evaporates when I know I've put in the preparation, and if I know I've done it a hundred or a thousand times in practice, when it comes up in real life, what do I have to be afraid of? I already know I can do it, and so I share that with my students all the time. You know, don't just practice it until you can get that exam question right or you know, how to do that special test. I think we grossly underestimate the repetition that it takes in order to really be successful.

0:31:05 - (Quang X. Pham): Well, so part of that I learned in the Marine Corps was, you know, in pharmaceutical biotech, we did role play, right? You, you're a sales representative, you're put in situation. There's an actor or a physician that's helping you talk to your products. Will you back up, you know, another decade. I was in the range. We had a lot of training mission. You know, real live mission is called situational training versus just going out to fly a couple hours or going out to the driving range and hitting ball for 30 minutes. We were put in situation with time, with resources and see if we can meet the test. Can you get to the right landing zone on the right time with these resources and with this mission brief, 55 minutes before you're supposed to be in the zone. So it was compressed, it was situational.

0:31:50 - (Quang X. Pham): I find those reality training situational scenarios. And I think it's very common now. It wasn't so common 25, 30 years ago, but I think with the technology, video AI, you can put your employees, your athletes, even the young ones, through a lot of, you know, and obviously you get all the statistics and all the explanations on the other side.

0:32:14 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, reminds me of that saying, the more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle. Very true. That notion of being prepared. You've spoken a lot about loving what you do until you can do what you love. And that's maybe an inversion of the way a lot of young people are taught, where they're taught to just pursue their passions. And that can lead to some, some dead ends and some unsuccessful pursuits.

0:32:40 - (Toby Brooks): How would you say that's played out in your own life? And how would you say others could apply that without losing their drive?

0:32:47 - (Quang X. Pham): Early in my Marine career, obviously I joined the Marines and became an aviator. And I wanted to be an F18 or Harrier jump jet pilot. What I learned was that the needs of the Marine Corps comes before the needs of the individual. And every Marine helicopter pilot operating off a ship requires two naval aviators. And so if the whole class gets helicopters. So, you know, I checked into Southern California, that is enthusia.

0:33:13 - (Quang X. Pham): And so, yeah, I learned very quickly that people watch you, your attitude, your training, your performance, and that I was looking forward to getting through my tour and perhaps reapplying. And I almost got burnt. I ran into the wrong person. And for the first time, you know, my career was at stake. Jump forward. When I got to corporate America, everybody was talking about that next promotion. And I can see some people, when they didn't get it, they forgot that they didn't excel at their current job. They were just average.

0:33:44 - (Quang X. Pham): And so I was leaving the service and I knew that I could just take it easy and just go interview and just kind of transition out. Well, I took a very hard job my last year. I was the commanding general's aide, the executive assistant. So I interface a lot of people went to war. Gans flew back in the back of an epic team with him in Southern California, flew everywhere with him and flew them in the marine helicopter.

0:34:06 - (Quang X. Pham): What I learned was that because I did that job very well, it helped me transition to the private sector. I had interface with many officials, civilian official business leaders in Southern California going forward five years later, when I was your dentech, the year that I thought about becoming an entrepreneur. During the dot com era, everybody wanted to be a dot com entrepreneur. I had this mydrug rep.com

0:34:28 - (Quang X. Pham): my business but I was at Genentech and I said, you can't just have one foot in, one foot out, they're paying you okay. So I ended up being the number one biotech rep for most of 1999, got a promotion, then resigned and started my new company. So what it did for me, it made me feel good that I gave my employer my full attention, did well when I made the leap and went to pitch venture capitalist. It gave me a great credibility that I didn't.

0:34:55 - (Quang X. Pham): I'd never been a CEO before. I had five years in the private industry. I had a business plan called mydruggrip.com that was gonna revolutionize pharmaceutical sales. But when I told him I was the number one biotech sales rep for the number one biotech in the world and I saw inefficiency in the model that the Internet could solve, it gave me instant credibility. So that period in my life I learned that hey, whatever you dream to do, do what you do really well. And so when you make that leap, you leave behind a good legacy. You live, you leave behind a good foundation. People feel good. They didn't feel like you had one foot in, one foot out. And I think on the other side, I was advising a group of entrepreneurs and a young lady had a career, 10 year career and she wanted to do something and she was doing it on the weekend and you know, she would leave work early and you know, I asked her a few things about a safety, a financial safety net because you know if you don't get funded, you're going to have to go into your savings. And after all of that, I gave her the advice of, you know, you should stay in corporate America. And she got upset. Three years later I ran into her again and she thanked me because some people are not ready and it's not just mentally, financially, family.

0:36:02 - (Quang X. Pham): There will be a time and you will know when the time is right. But the key message with that chapter in the book was love what you do until you do what you do because it turns out well for all parties.

0:36:11 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. Well said. And I think that's a fresh message and an interesting take relative to what a lot of kids are being taught today, where it's just find your passion and go after that all out. I think there's an integrity piece to doing the best job you can at whatever season you're in. So a lot of times in these big transitions, I've encountered this before. Sometimes it's a push and sometimes it's a pull.

0:36:36 - (Toby Brooks): I think we share in common that we were pushed out of competitive basketball. I would have loved to have played a little longer, but that door wasn't open for me. And then other times, I've ran full steam ahead toward bigger, better opportunities. That's a pull for someone listening right now who feels stuck in that in between, they're burned out. Maybe they're. They're overshadowed. What's one practical step they can take today that can help them reclaim their own vision of success?

0:37:04 - (Quang X. Pham): I think is you have to just be. You know, do you have your health and do you have your family? I mean, you're. To me, I work in healthcare. I have friends who have been sick and gotten sick and have passed away. As you reach a certain age and live in a certain demographic, the number one thing is just look where you are in life. And I think if you have health and you have family and relationship, you are ahead.

0:37:28 - (Quang X. Pham): Okay. I think sometimes you just take a reality check. I know financial situation is a burden. A lot of people are having a challenging time right now. Once again, health and happiness to me are at the very top of the list. I think the next step you can take is you have to be active in learning. There's just so many tools right now. The Internet's been around 30 years. The PC, Wi, Fi. You have to be current.

0:37:57 - (Quang X. Pham): I think when you get stagnant in your job, in your career, in your company, if you're current, you can see it coming. And you can see even just sideways, go to another company in the same. In the same role, because where you are maybe downsized or you don't want to move, I think geography is a big deal. A lot of people move around for a job. If you can find the ideal job and you live near family and friends, it's a big, big plus because I've seen people leave and they end up coming back to their hometown or wherever they had the most connections, myself included.

0:38:31 - (Quang X. Pham): I think it's fair to say that there's a chapter in my book where I face some great transition challenge. I think the COVID year was a challenge year for me. I've had the success, sold a company and the COVID year was when I went through a divorce after a long, mostly happy marriage and I had to shut down my drug company. We couldn't get funded. It was a tough time, it was very challenging, but I went, I stuck with my method, just do it right.

0:38:55 - (Quang X. Pham): We ended up studying the wind out appropriately and you know, investors were, I think they weren't happy, but they were on the respect there. You have to remember that as an entrepreneur, people invest in your ideas and your companies and when things don't work out, they lose, you lose, they lose. But it's your responsibility to set it up, take it on success, get all the glory. And when it doesn't work, you have to do the right thing and just, you just can't walk away and just leave things hanging and somebody has to come in and clean your mess.

0:39:28 - (Quang X. Pham): You know, attorneys, accountants, do it the right way.

0:39:32 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, I think there's so much wisdom in that and it can be so difficult to, to know how to, to forge ahead when we find ourselves in the midst of, I call them purpose storms. And there's, there's a bit of a healthcare analogy there. In the throes of looking for why I'm here, not, not really knowing whether I should take that opportunity or stay where I'm at, I came across the notion of a thyroid storm where our endocrine system goes haywire for no apparent reason. Sometimes these purpose storms can be triggered by events. You know, you suffer an injury and your athletic career is over or you end up getting downsized. I mean, sometimes that happens, but other times it can just be like an existential crisis and we can't really predict when or even why that's occurring.

0:40:16 - (Toby Brooks): Any advice you could give for someone who's maybe facing that crisis of purpose?

0:40:22 - (Quang X. Pham): I think they call it midlife crisis, late life crisis, early life crisis. Now there's no more midlife crisis. Right. The, you know, the mid career professional who just kind of like burnt out. First of all, I think careers and jobs are transient these days. You know, the old days of spending 35, 40 years and getting pensions are mostly over. And so the 401k, everything's portable and what you've earned, invested, travels with you. So in a way it's transportable, so are your skills and so are your job. So I think somebody who is stuck has to realize there's a few things at play.

0:41:01 - (Quang X. Pham): Health, happiness, finance, geography. And part of the happiness is relationship. I think part of one of the chapters I wrote about is when you have something that's open, it affects your life. Whether it's a former spouse you're dealing with, divorce, separation, a parent that you don't speak with, a sibling that you don't have a relationship with. You know, I suggested in the book close that loop because you think that, God, I don't care anymore.

0:41:29 - (Quang X. Pham): But it affects other parts of your life and your relationships. I always encourage people, as long as you're still on this earth, close that loop.

0:41:39 - (Toby Brooks): Kind of feels like Kwong is meddling in my business here a little bit, whether he realized it or not. Full disclosure here. I have had a rough couple of years. Kwong mentioned that he had an especially hard year in 2020. I think many of us can relate. I took over as program director at my previous institution in April of 2020, literally one week before the lockdown began. Like many professors, I ended up teaching online for the rest of that spring semester, and I personally spent most of my days alone in a home office out in my pole barn in my backyard.

0:42:13 - (Toby Brooks): During that time, it's safe to say I grew deeply depressed. All the while, I tried to keep up appearances of being stable and strong and together, but inside I was anything but just One or two trusted friends know just how dark that season was for me, but like so many others, I made it through. Over the next few years, I grew more and more dissatisfied with my role at work, and some important relationships with my extended family hit some incredibly rough spots too.

0:42:43 - (Toby Brooks): I take my share or more of the blame, but regardless of whose fault it is, the end result was communication was cut off, persistent hurt feelings, and an ever deepening divide that, sadly, has also impacted my immediate family, who had nothing to do with the disagreement that started us at all. When Kong says that such relationships are a drain, he's right. I know that if you're in the middle of the same, you know it too.

0:43:11 - (Toby Brooks): And chances are you also know that it isn't so easy to just quote, unquote fix it. I'd love to tell you that it gets easier, but I also know that for me, it simply hasn't. However, as Kuang points out, all hope need not be lost. There's always a choice to be made, and while it might not be easy, it might also be exactly what we need.

0:43:35 - (Quang X. Pham): I think if people are stuck, don't bang your head against that same method. You know if you think you're going to be XYZ in a certain career or a company and it's not happening, then take your skill somewhere else. Just don't get frustrated. And if it's something you don't want to do anymore, then just make sure you excel at it while you are doing the other research. But just always do best where you are because things will be good. When you go interview and you, they find out they didn't, the company didn't let you go because you were, you know, searching for another job.

0:44:08 - (Quang X. Pham): What were you supposed to do in your job? It's not easy. I think you have to try a few different things. But I think just doing the same thing over, I don't want to, you know, overstate the definition of insanity. Right. But I think people know that doing the same thing over and expecting a different result.

0:44:23 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, for sure. Again, talking Quangx Foam the Chairman CEO of Kadrino Therapeutics, also a US Marine Corps veteran and a UCLA Bruin. So you, you mentioned the book. It's not your first book. So talk to us a little bit about Underdog nation.

0:44:39 - (Quang X. Pham): So in 2005 a sense of Duty came out and that's about family, Marine Corps, you know, trying to find out, make sense of the Vietnam War. I reunited with my father. So I always didn't want to be a one hit wonder, you know, one time author, I always wanted to do a second book and it was not going to be a personal book. But as I started writing Underdog Nation and the themes of coming to America and the, the last bastion in the free world, it remains true. Fifty years later, you know, people still are still coming here to Ukraine, Afghanistan, Iraq.

0:45:07 - (Quang X. Pham): You know, there are refugees that are like in my shoes 50 years ago. And the message is still the same. This is life, happiness, it's right here. But you have to earn it. And America asks very little of you. And so that's what I went back and looked at. Underdog. And you know, I think I started the book talking about leaving Vietnam, but then I looked at American history. America was an underdog. Yeah, just 250 years ago.

0:45:32 - (Quang X. Pham): 49 years ago. Right. I joined an organization which was the Underdog Military, the smallest of the four armed forces. There's a, there's a theme and there's the America's love underdog, whether it's a sports team or not. But when the underdog doesn't make it, it's forgotten. So I always say it's okay to be an underdog. They'll Root for you. But you gotta. You gotta break through. You gotta get the hit, okay?

0:45:55 - (Quang X. Pham): You gotta make it through off your candidate school. Your company has to make it. You gotta get a drug approved. So the journey continues. And I think in my speaker introduction, a young man helped me put it together. You know, the real journey is not where you come from, but where you're headed because it's behind you. So people ask me all the time about my past, and every time I get there, I'm like, you know, my future doesn't look like my career track. Right. Like you said, I jumped around and I've had a very blessed life.

0:46:23 - (Quang X. Pham): We'll be back after this quick message.

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0:47:28 - (Quang X. Pham): I'm very grateful for this country and the people I've met and the opportunities I've had. I'm just trying to share back that people pick up one or two nuggets, whether it's love, what you do, and for you, what you do. You know, the er, analogy. I'd be very happy if people pick up one or two things that I put in the book.

0:47:45 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, yeah. Well, you teed me up perfectly. For my next question, tell us a little bit about your day to day. You're with Kadrino CEO. What does your work look like in 2025?

0:47:55 - (Quang X. Pham): So I think the biotech or, you know, what we Call it the drug development. Most of the thousands of biotech companies, you know, now we're not talking about big pharma like Merk or Pfizer. Biotech drug development company are free revenue. We are developing molecules, whether the biologics or small molecule. The greatest thing is that our industry produces most of the innovation for the world. The drugs that come out of America, the world benefits from it. So I always share with our team, and I call it, not my company, our company. I'm the founder, CEO and chairman. It's our company, it's our team, it's our drug.

0:48:28 - (Quang X. Pham): We're doing it. The drug will be here forever. Unlike a regional, local or national company, this drug is going to put Warfarin, the oldest blood thinner in the world that's been around for 70 years, out of business. But we're not there yet. We need to do one more trial. So our day as executives of a biotech company that's pre revenue is we have to advance the drug in the trial. We gotta get the financial stability of the company, get the financing, the investment to do the trial.

0:48:59 - (Quang X. Pham): Communicate with the fda, talk to our intellectual property attorneys to make sure the pads and everything is valid for the drug. We want to protect it. Then we actually have to go and get investigators and then find patients, encourage them. They entered the trial, which lasts over two years, gather all the data and take it to the FDA and say, this is to prove these are the metrics the FDA wanted us to beat, whether it's placebo or warfarin. And that's how that's that. That's our day. It's around the five pillars. You know, finance, regulatory, intellectual property, clinical trials, you know, that lasts. But the number one is the patients.

0:49:37 - (Quang X. Pham): The patient doesn't care if you don't have the money or the financial market is bad. The need is still there. And so what we're trying to do is get our drug to Carfin. It's a blood thinner. It's to help people who are about to go on dialysis, to prevent them from getting a blood clot and they could die from a heart attack or so that's it. Very simple. Yeah.

0:49:56 - (Toby Brooks): Well, that's great. This one is unrelated, but I asked this one of all my guests. I love music and the emotions that it can frequently represent. If we were to watch a montage of your life, what song would you pick as the soundtrack to play in the background and why?

0:50:09 - (Quang X. Pham): Wow. I'm a big, I'm a big fan of the Clash. Every time I hear London calling. I remember Saigon calling. And so definitely the Clash will be playing in the background.

0:50:22 - (Toby Brooks): Gotcha. That's a great answer. I've not had a guest answer that rock the Casbah.

0:50:28 - (Quang X. Pham): Big part of my high school college years, it was just a great band, I think. I'm a big fan of the Clash, big fan of Green Day, and I'm so excited. My. My daughter is second year in college, and we're going to see Oasis reunion at the Rose Bowl.

0:50:45 - (Toby Brooks): Nice.

0:50:46 - (Quang X. Pham): And so it was her idea. And I think the whole generation of younger Americans growing up, they're coming back to that music, which was, you know, my music, you know, in my. In my 20s. Yeah. And so I'm so excited to go see Joist reunion concert.

0:51:02 - (Toby Brooks): Right. No, that's tremendous. And the fact that she invited you makes that all the sweeter. I've got a son who's a sophomore myself, and he has not yet suggested a concert for us. So, Tay, if you're listening, that would really make my day. All right, well, last one here. What for Kwong? Remains undone.

0:51:23 - (Quang X. Pham): You know, I would say professionally, to get this drug approved. Professionally, as at the top of our. In my list. That's the one, you know, travel bucket list. Stuff I don't have anymore. I saw things and done things. I don't have this wish list of I need to go see something or play golf somewhere. On the pride, the fun side, to win a club championship. There you go. That's too. You know, it used to be to run a few marathons. I ran, ended up running 16 of them in my life, in my 40s, about, you know, nothing material. No house, boat, or plane or anything like that. I traveled.

0:52:01 - (Quang X. Pham): When it goes back again. Health and happiness at the top of the list.

0:52:04 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. Well, if any friends or fellow club members are listening, look out you are.

0:52:12 - (Quang X. Pham): Center said, we're coming. We coming. I'm coming.

0:52:15 - (Toby Brooks): Yep, absolutely. Well, how can listeners connect? I'll point them toward the book. If There are any URLs or addresses that I can.

0:52:24 - (Quang X. Pham): Yeah, it's easy. Huang Xom is my name and I'm on LinkedIn. A lot of professional send questions and I try to answer a few Things outside of LinkedIn is a website with my name. U A N G X P H A M. You'll see both books on there. You see my speaking topics. You see my intro video. You started with, you know, the helicopters and the evacuation of Saigon all the way to ringing the bell, opening the closing bell at NASDAQ, and we went public in early 2023.

0:52:52 - (Quang X. Pham): It's been an incredible journey no other country could have afforded. And many people. This country has afforded many people. This is just, you know, one journey. The opportunities that I've had.

0:53:04 - (Toby Brooks): Well, it's been an honor. Real pleasure to speak with you again. Quantics, foam serial entrepreneur, Marine Corps veteran, refugee from Vietnam, and. And now successful in so many.

0:53:15 - (Quang X. Pham): I forgot to say one thing. The saw that hit me the hardest was, you know, it's the Floridian. I'm a California on the Floridian. Tom Petty. We don't have to live like a refugee. 1978, and we don't.

0:53:29 - (Toby Brooks): It's funny you say that, because I guess I was like, is this a Mandela effect, or did I really just not. The reboot of King of the Hill, Tom Petty was a voice of Lucky in that. And they said, you know, several of the cast members, the voice actors had passed away, and they said, tom Petty. And I'm like, I did not recall that. We lost him. Yeah, all right.

0:53:50 - (Quang X. Pham): That was I. I would say one of my first few American songs that I learned that really hit me.

0:53:56 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, I can imagine.

0:53:58 - (Quang X. Pham): They're running a song. This is Quan Xfam and I am undone.

0:54:18 - (Toby Brooks): As we close today's episode, I'm struck by Quang's reminder. It's not where you start. It's how you show up, what you pour in, and what you choose to become. From refugee to Marine, from corporate outsider to public company CEO, his life is proof that underdogs can rise, not by chasing shortcuts or waiting for permission, but by putting in the work and owning the outcome. So wherever you are in your own becoming stuck, searching, or sprinting ahead, remember, effort and results define success for yourself.

0:54:51 - (Toby Brooks): Then pursue it relentlessly. I'm thankful to Kwong for dropping in, and I hope you enjoyed our conversation. For more info on today's episode, be sure to check it out on the web. Simply go to undonepodcast.com ep140 to see the notes, links, and images related to today's guest, Kwong Xfang. I know there are great stories out there to be told, and I'm always on the lookout. So if you or someone you know has a story that we can all be inspired by, tell me about it. Surf on over to undonepodcast.com, click the contact tab in the top menu, and drop me a note.

0:55:21 - (Toby Brooks): Coming up on the show, I've got Silicon Valley entrepreneur Ileana Golan, who transitioned from an Air Force career to successful startup founder, only to wake up one day and discover she'd been removed, locked out from the company she founded. Hear how she turned that experience of devastation and starting over into a $10 million comeback and the work she's doing today as the founder of Leap Academy. Then I've got athletic trainer Morgan Dietrich, who bravely shares her powerful story of recovery and redemption and her fight with alcohol addiction.

0:55:50 - (Toby Brooks): This and more coming up on Becoming Undone. Becoming Undone is a Nitrohock creative production, written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. Tell a friend about the show and follow along on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn at Becoming Undone pod. And follow me at my new socials handle, obiebrooksphd on Facebook, Instagram, X LinkedIn and TikTok. Also check out my link tree at linktr.ee. tobybrooksphd, a brand new website, should launch this week as well@tobybrooksphd.com

0:56:18 - (Toby Brooks): after months of work and no small amount of hand wringing and gnashing of teeth to decide what URL to put it at, we finally decided on that PhD part, which tbh I kind of hate, but it was the only related handle available across all those platforms. So that's where we're at. Listen, subscribe, Leave me a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your podcasts. Till next time, friend.

0:56:42 - (Toby Brooks): Keep getting better.

0:56:51 - (Quang X. Pham): Sam.