156 | The Concussion That Changed Everything: Dr. Shawn Eagle's Path to Purpose

About the Guest

Dr. Shawn Eagle is an assistant professor in the Department of Neurological Surgery at the University of Pittsburgh, where he is regarded as a global expert on concussion and traumatic brain injury. With more than 150 peer-reviewed publications, Dr. Eagle’s work has significantly influenced how concussion and brain injuries are understood, treated, and recovered from. His journey from a collegiate athlete suffering injuries to a prominent researcher underscores his dedication to improving athletes' lives and health outcomes through cutting-edge research.

Episode Summary

In this episode of Becoming UnDone® , Dr. Shawn Eagle joins host Toby Brooks to discuss the intricate journey from athlete to renowned concussion expert. Dr. Eagle candidly recounts his own experiences with sports injuries during his undergraduate years and how they inadvertently steered him toward a groundbreaking career in traumatic brain injury research. His story is a testament to resilience, underscoring significant themes of identity, failure, and ultimately redemption. The conversation delves into the science behind concussion and how modern treatments have evolved to provide more effective recovery pathways.

The episode also highlights the importance of understanding the long-term effects of concussions, particularly in athletes, and how early interventions can make a significant difference. This informative dialogue not only sheds light on critical advancements in concussion research but also serves as an inspiration for those grappling with personal and professional setbacks. Toby Brooks and Dr. Eagle reflect on personal growth, the power of perseverance, and the evolving landscape of sports medicine, attracting listeners interested in sports science, personal development, and medical innovation.

Key Takeaways

• Personal experiences with injuries can pave the way for future professional paths, as demonstrated by Dr. Eagle’s shift from athlete to researcher.
• Modern concussion treatment emphasizes immediate activity and symptom monitoring, moving away from outdated practices like prolonged rest in dark rooms.
• Athletic trainers play a critical role in concussion management due to their proximity and understanding of athletes' baseline behaviors.
• CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy) narratives often overshadow the treatability and hope associated with concussions.
• Resilience and adaptability are vital, as illustrated by Dr. Eagle's career journey and dedication to advancing science in traumatic brain injuries.

Notable Quotes

1. "I think this is a big part why I'm so passionate about the CTE side of things; I don't know what I would be without football."
2. "I want people to understand that the brain is plastic and will respond and can respond."
3. "Athletic trainers are kind of perfectly trained to manage concussion in the modern understanding…"
4. "For Sean, it wasn't just an injury. It was confusion, anxiety, a sense that something wasn't right."
5. "The very thing that could have been the end of his story as an athlete became the beginning of his purpose."

Resources

Transcript

0:00:03 - (Shawn Eagle): This is becoming undone. My senior year in camp, I had a pretty severe AC joint separation in my shoulder. I was out for six or seven weeks of my senior year and, you know, not going pro, that's all you get. So I was missing at least six games. I was captain of the team. I was really, you know, upset about that. But I focused on getting better and setting up a plan so that I could come back and make the most of the last three or four games.

0:00:36 - (Shawn Eagle): And I put on my helmet when I was coming back, went out to practice that first time back, had a head to head collision and got a concussion. I struggled a lot with that. I was going to miss at least another game. I kind of spiraled and anxiety and depression like, I can't believe this is happening. The story of how I got here is very interesting because you're right, this doesn't happen very often from an mat degree, you know, I went the typical route. I ended up getting a athletic trainer position at my alma mater, high school.

0:01:10 - (Shawn Eagle): I was pretty miserable. You know, eventually the AD comes to me and is like, I don't think this is a good fit. So, you know, you have two more weeks. I think this is a big part. Why I'm so passionate about the CTE side of things is I don't know what. I had great parents, but I don't know what I would be without football. And it was so foundational to my life and the character and the person I want to be.

0:01:38 - (Shawn Eagle): And I don't want that to go away for so many young men who are searching for something. I'm Shawn Eagle and I am Undone.

0:01:59 - (Toby Brooks): Hey, friend. I'm glad you're here. Welcome to yet another episode of Becoming Undone, the podcast for those who dare bravely risk mightily and grow relentlessly. I'm Toby Brooks, a speaker, author, professor, and performance scientist. I've spent much of the last two decades working as an athletic trainer and a strength coach in the professional, collegiate and high school sports settings. And over the years, I've grown more and more fascinated with what sets high achievers apart and how failures that can suck in the moment can end up being exactly what we needed to propel us on our path to success.

0:02:28 - (Toby Brooks): Each week on Becoming Undone, I invite new guests to examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. I'd like to emphasize that this show is entirely separate from my role at Baylor University, but it's my attempt to apply what I've learned and what I'm learning and to share with others about the mindsets and stories of high achievers. Y' all. It's been a remarkably cool and dreary day here in Central Texas. The kind of gloomy gray that takes me back to where I grew up in southern Illinois.

0:02:59 - (Toby Brooks): Those long winter months of no sunlight, that low, depressing ceiling of clouds and a kind of quiet heaviness that just seemed to hang in the air for months at a time. And I don't know about you, but those early seasons of life have a way of coming back at unexpected times. And today was one of those days. Now, I won't bore you with the details, but it's been one of the more challenging stretches that I can remember.

0:03:25 - (Toby Brooks): The work has come hard, the lessons have been painful, and the pace at times has been relentless. But I'm still standing. And it's Friday night at 10:20pm and I'm still grinding, still working away. Sometimes that's the best we can do, is to just show up. That said, there are days when it feels like I'm limping through life on two or three cylinders. But maybe those are the days that we need to give ourselves a little grace and recognize that doing your best doesn't mean perfect.

0:03:56 - (Toby Brooks): It just means giving all that you had. And maybe that's enough. Today's guest has had days like that, too, Dr. Shawn Eagle. He'll be the first to tell you there are moments in life that don't just change your path. They change you. Not all at once. Not in some dramatic, even cinematic way. Sometimes it's just one hit, one injury, one moment where something shifts and you don't even fully understand it at the time.

0:04:25 - (Toby Brooks): And for high achievers, especially athletes, we're taught to push through those moments, to grind and to fight and to ignore what doesn't feel right and just keep going. But what happens when the thing you're pushing through is actually changing you, not just physically, but mentally and emotionally, even at the level of your identity? This episode is a personal one for me because it's not just about concussion.

0:04:52 - (Toby Brooks): It's not just about sport. It's about a young man I had the chance to teach early in his journey, whose story stayed with me long after he left my classroom. And, spoiler alert, I got a little choked up more than once in my attempt to apologize for what I thought in the moment some 15 years ago was the best way to encourage a student. This episode is about what happens when a setback doesn't just derail you, but it quietly begins to reshape the direction of your life today. Dr. Eagle is one of the leading voices in the world on traumatic brain injury with more than 150 peer reviewed publications and work that's changing how we understand, treat and recover from concussion.

0:05:31 - (Toby Brooks): But long before that, he was a captain, an athlete, a competitor, and like so many others, his story didn't unfold the way that he thought it would. What you're about to hear is not just a story about injury. It's a story about identity. And if we get real honest, about regret and redemption and ultimately about what it really means to become undone. I hope you'll enjoy my conversation with Dr. Shawn Eagle in episode 156.

0:06:00 - (Toby Brooks): Let's get into it. Becoming Undone is a podcast for those who dare bravely risk mightily and grow relentlessly. Join me, Toby Brooks, as I invite a new guest each week where we examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. And I will tell you, today's episode's a special one for me because I get the chance to reconnect with someone I've known for a long time. And I've had the privilege of teaching early in his journey. And it's been really exciting to see how he's grown since those days. So joining me today is Dr. Sean Eagle. He's now an assistant professor and researcher in the Department of Neurological Surgery at the University of Pittsburgh.

0:06:33 - (Toby Brooks): He's a renowned traumatic brain injury expert. He's got more than 150 papers to his credit and counting. I'm sure there's several in the opera right now. He's considered a global expert on concussion, but his journey today traces all the way back to his experiences as an athlete. So, Sean, Dr. Eagle, it's great to have you on the show. Welcome to Becoming Undone.

0:06:54 - (Shawn Eagle): Thank you so much for having me.

0:06:56 - (Toby Brooks): Well, you reached out to me and I was super excited because your story was one that stuck with me. Like in a given year we would have 100 applicants for one of the student positions in our program. And there was an essay associated with that. And I distinctly remember yours even to this day, how you were a leader on your football team in college and how concussion had really kind of derailed your journey.

0:07:19 - (Toby Brooks): And I recall us having conversations about how that was influencing you even then. And to see what you've done with it since then is even more exciting for me. So I always start with a little bit of a softball to to begin, what'd you want to be growing up and why and what did you believe that version of you would finally prove,

0:07:40 - (Shawn Eagle): I don't really know ultimately if I knew what I wanted to be. I eventually landed on deciding I wanted to be a physician's assistant. And I went to college and they actually had an athletic training major at Denison University. It's a very small liberal arts school in Ohio. And you know, I had six other people in my class and you know, the combination of football and maybe being on my own for the first time led me not to perform as to my, to my best. And my grades were fine. But that was right when physician's assistant school was like really getting hot. And the criteria to get in were strict.

0:08:24 - (Shawn Eagle): And so that wasn't, that was quickly not becoming an option for me. And it was my mom who said, you know, you know, you have this athletic training degree, you should try to get a master's in it and practice. And I thought, you know, that's a pretty good idea, I should try to do that. And that's what led me to apply. And at the time there were very, there were only like 15 programs or something like that across the country. And I, I had gone to a big high school in a very small college and I wanted to feel what it felt like to be a student at a big program with big time sports and Texas Tech was the best option of those. That's, that's how I ended up in Lubbock.

0:09:04 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, that's great. I know you were a collegiate athlete. Briefly talk me through your journey from high school sports to college. I mean, you kind of alluded to the master's degree, but really the core of this show is how setbacks that we face along the way can really helped set us up for success. So kind of talk me through that process as a high school athlete and beyond and how that maybe set the stage for what was later to come.

0:09:31 - (Shawn Eagle): Yeah, sometimes things just kind of line up in an interesting way and hopefully we'll get to this. But you, you've had an influence on my life, whether you knew it or not. And I let me go back first. So we were, we were the third biggest high school in terms of student population in western Pennsylvania. Western Pennsylvania is a big time for high school football. Sports in general, but definitely football area.

0:10:00 - (Shawn Eagle): You know, I'm not sure it quite lives up to Texas high school football,

0:10:03 - (Toby Brooks): but depends on who you ask.

0:10:05 - (Shawn Eagle): Class. Some, some of the all time football greats have come out of western Pennsylvania and you know, football was a big deal and it felt like a really big deal to us. And you know, thousands of people would come Watch us play our games. And you know, you don't know this at the time, but I played tight end at defensive end and when I lined up at tight end, the person to my left played for the Green Bay packers for several years.

0:10:32 - (Toby Brooks): Wow.

0:10:32 - (Shawn Eagle): And the person to his left played for the Minnesota Vikings for several years and blocked Adrian Peterson. We had big time athletes all over the place and you know, it, it felt very, you know, especially to a young kid, it felt very important to me. Yeah. And you know, I had had a series of injuries my senior year in high school and I had a conversation, I had a conversation with my parents. I was like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. Like, I was pretty broken down by the end of my senior year. Like, I'm not sure I want to do this in college. And they both were, pushed me into doing it and I'm glad they did. And I, I landed at a small Division 3 school for football and went from, you know, Friday Night Lights, where it felt like this big, huge event in the center of the town and, you know, playing for 40, 50 people on Saturday afternoons and a small school. And, you know, I, I was like, what did I do here?

0:11:34 - (Shawn Eagle): At first, and then I kind of fell into it. You know, I got invested in changing the program's ways. We were very middle of the road for a long time and now they're consistently in the top end of their conference, which is something I'm proud of because I helped, at least from a student athlete perspective, lend my recommendations to a board that hired the coach that coached my senior year and is still there. His name's Jack Hayden, a great guy, but, you know, in terms of how football led me here my senior year, I, in, in camp I had a pretty severe ac, joint separation in my shoulder. I was out for six or seven weeks of my senior year and you know, not, not going pro. That's all you get. So I was missing at least six games.

0:12:27 - (Shawn Eagle): I was captain of the team. I was really, you know, upset about that. But I focused on getting better and setting up a plan so that I could come back and make the most of the last three or four games. And I, I, I put on my helmet when I was coming back, went out to practice that first time back, had a head to head collision and got a concussion. I realized after the fact that nobody, including myself, had thought to blow up the air in the pockets of the helmet for the last seven weeks.

0:13:02 - (Shawn Eagle): And maybe that was what happened. But I struggled a lot with that. I was going to miss at least another game. I kind of spiraled in anxiety and depression like I can't believe this is happening. It's my last season.

0:13:19 - (Toby Brooks): In a story that is all too familiar, Sean shares his own experiences with injury and how they shaped his journey and his path. It started with a severe AC separation in his shoulder that's especially problematic in a pass catching tight end like he was, who was also frequently blocking big, quick defensive ends. That initial injury cost him two thirds of his senior season by itself. And as he reflected, that timeout might have also made him more susceptible to the injury he'd suffer next.

0:13:49 - (Toby Brooks): A concussion. Sean's helmet was most likely under inflated, leaving him vulnerable. And when he sustained a helmet to helmet blow, not only was he likely wearing an ill fitting piece of protective gear, he probably also was not as strong in his upper traps and the surrounding musculature as he would have been had he been playing that whole time. Regardless, the impact led to a concussion. And what's worse, his symptoms lingered.

0:14:15 - (Toby Brooks): Even though Sean was at a small Division 3 school, his team had an athletic trainer. And one of the things I love most about the profession of AT is that we get to really know our athletes. Being embedded in the team, we're a perfect example of preventative upstream healthcare. Sean's AT knew him because he'd worked with him in rehabilitating his injuries or maybe even just being in the locker room, the training room, or the weight room.

0:14:40 - (Toby Brooks): So when Shawn's personality changed and those lingering symptoms of concussion triggered anxiety and mood changes in him, his AT noticed. And that matters more than most people might realize. At the college level, especially within organizations like the ncaa, access to ats has thankfully become the norm. The vast majority of NCAA programs have dedicated sports medicine staffs assigned to their teams, and that kind of coverage is expected today.

0:15:09 - (Toby Brooks): Now, admittedly, many staffs tend to be overextended and underfunded, but at least someone's there. But if we zoom out for a second, we realize that Shawn's story could have easily happened a few years earlier in high school. And that's where the gap becomes impossible to ignore. Across the US nearly 8 million high school athletes compete each year through the National Federation of High School State Associations.

0:15:35 - (Toby Brooks): That's millions of kids. Same collision, same risk, same stakes. But only about 2/3 of high schools have access to a full time athletic trainer. And roughly 30% of schools have no athletic trainer at all. Not full time, not part time, none. So think about that. What? Sean had someone embedded, someone who Knew him well enough to notice subtle changes. Unfortunately, that's not a universal standard for millions of young athletes. It's an exception.

0:16:03 - (Toby Brooks): Nobody's tracking their baseline. Nobody's recognizing when something seems off. No one's connecting the dots between injury behavior and mental health. When you start to see it that way, Sean's story stops feeling like an isolated case, and it starts to feel like a glimpse into a much bigger problem. Lucky for Sean, his AT not only noticed, but he took action. And it was a step that likely changed his life, not to mention his life's work.

0:16:31 - (Shawn Eagle): And it took an athletic trainer, our team's athletic trainer, to pull me aside and say, you're not the same person right now. You're acting differently. And we know concussions can do this, and let's figure out a plan. And it's something that, after the fact, seems so obvious that a concussion was causing the anxiety. For at least three or four days, I was. I was losing it. I wasn't sleeping. I didn't understand what was happening.

0:17:02 - (Shawn Eagle): And so thank God for him. His name was Eric Winters. He was an athletic trainer at Denison University. And that stuck in my mind. And I wanted. Even through our time in Texas Tech, we didn't have very much at our disposal for concussion. Learning about that more at Texas Tech and then more as a research assistant with the military or focused on military populations, rather, that led me to where I am today.

0:17:35 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. And I have to say, Sean, I was so happy when you reached out to me, because over the years, I've looked back over my career. You know, it's kind of what old men do. We sit in our chair and we think back about things we could have done better or things that went great. And as I said, your story stuck out to me. You were a leader. And I remember conversations with you where you said how hard it was to think that coaches were questioning your character, like you weren't tough enough, or you were somehow faking this, or this was lingering on longer than it should have.

0:18:10 - (Toby Brooks): And I feel like in some ways, I did the same thing to you, because there were moments in your academic career where I knew you were capable of so much more. And I had a coach who often said to me, sometimes we need a kick in the pants, and sometimes we need a hug around the neck. Neck. And if I give you the wrong one, I send exactly the wrong message. But if I give you the right one, that's precisely what you needed.

0:18:33 - (Toby Brooks): And since you went on and I've seen what you did as a Professional. The research that you're doing, you're honored at Texas Tech as an alum. I remember just the regret of thinking I kicked you in the pants when you needed a hug around the neck. And I wasn't trying to enable poor behavior. I was trying to encourage you and inspire you to be the best that you could be. But given what you had been through, and you know this better than I do, the lingering effects of traumatic brain injury, it doesn't just clear up after a week, and it's gone forever.

0:19:11 - (Toby Brooks): We have patients who suffer through depressive episodes and anxiety for the rest of their lives in response to perhaps one injury that happened on one play that they can pinpoint. So in front of God and everybody, I want to tell you how deeply sorry I am for kicking when I should have hugged, perhaps. But I hope you know that I love you and I wanted what's best for you. And this is hard for me to say, but I'm just thankful for this chance to reconcile.

0:19:43 - (Shawn Eagle): Yeah, I really appreciate that. And I want you to know I don't feel. I don't feel that any conversation we had was ever unwarranted. In fact, you can cut this if you want, but I pulled down my dissertation here, that's printed, because I recalled, in prepping for this, what I wrote in the preface, and I specifically name you. I say thank you to doctors Dr. Leslie Taylor, Toby Brooks, Natalie Steadman, and Troy Hooper for your teaching and direction while attending Texas Tech.

0:20:20 - (Shawn Eagle): I regret that at times, you did not see the best version of me. I want you to know that I found something I'm passionate about and will drive to represent the program. And I. That's a theme in my life. You know, my mom jokes about this story that in. In, like, eighth or ninth grade, I. You know, my grades were slipping. You know, they had a comp. We had a parent teacher conference with myself present. And, you know, we grew up on a small barn. We had horses and. And stuff. And.

0:20:53 - (Shawn Eagle): And I would make excuses to them, like, you know, I'm working with the horses. You know, so I'm like, grades are slipping. And my mom came in and was like, he's full of it. You know, this is not what's happening. She took me to a Christian school with a linoleum basketball court, and I. You know, all of a sudden, my grades got a lot. A lot better. But, you know, I. I've noticed this pattern in my life in academia where, as a student, where I just. I don't know, I kind of skate By. Until that thing lights me up.

0:21:30 - (Shawn Eagle): And there were a few of those moments at Texas Tech that drove me exactly to where I am today. And I. I wanted you and the. My advisors at Denison to know.

0:21:43 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

0:21:44 - (Shawn Eagle): That I had found the thing that. That turned the switch. I love it.

0:21:48 - (Toby Brooks): I. I'm so thankful to hear those words and I sincerely appreciate it. I hope you know that all of my guidance and pushing and prodding, it was coming from a place of care and I wanted what was best for you. I want to zero in on that end of the competitive sport for you. That's a common theme in this show. Whether it's athletes, entrepreneurs, artists, when it ends, whether that's one play, whether that's one day, whether that's one season, when it ends.

0:22:21 - (Toby Brooks): The psychological toll on that is not something we as sports medicine professionals have really given enough credence to. I don't believe for you personally as an athlete. Can you describe what that moment or that day or that season was like when you knew in your heart that it was over and how maybe that continues to impact your work even today?

0:22:41 - (Shawn Eagle): Yeah, I think it impacts my work every day because there are a lot of careers that get ended early because of concussions and brain injuries. There are a lot of lives that get ended early because of those things. And I want people to know that this is a treatable condition. There is hope there. There. No matter how long it has been since you've had your head injury, you can recover. There's. There. We have developed plenty of techniques for this.

0:23:15 - (Shawn Eagle): You know, going back to 2006 and my last concussion as a football player. They sent me to a dark room for two days.

0:23:23 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah.

0:23:24 - (Shawn Eagle): And we know now, only 15 years later, that is the exact opposite thing should be doing. And. But it was. That was standard practice, you know, and I. I'm laying there in bed in a dark room, captain of the team, completely isolated from my team and my friends and any social engagement at all.

0:23:47 - (Toby Brooks): Right.

0:23:48 - (Shawn Eagle): In an attempt to try to get better. And instead I did start developing panic attacks and, you know, crippling anxiety. And we kind of have two ends of the research that we do here. The kind of acute management, trying to get people better earlier from the injury. But we're also very concerned with those who have had long term effects from the injury. You know, we all talk and have heard about chronic traumatic encephalopathy, and that's a big focus of what we do because I want people to understand that the science is not really there on that bit yet. And yet we're seeing stories in the New York Times about athletes taking their own lives because they assume they have CTE, when in reality, man, they're probably just anxious and 15 years old and have stress and they need somebody to say, hey, you're not the same person the way Dr. Winters did for me.

0:24:47 - (Toby Brooks): We'll be back after this quick message. Have you ever looked in the mirror and thought, what in the hell just happened to my life? When the career shifts, when the relationship ends, when the identity you've built your whole life around disappears overnight, that's not failure. That's what I call a purpose storm. And most high achievers aren't prepared for it because no one ever taught us how to train for a comeback.

0:25:16 - (Toby Brooks): I'm Dr. Toby Brooks and I built the Science of the Comeback for people who refuse to stay broken. Inside the app you'll find research backed resilience training, daily prompts and guided reflection tools, performance psychology frameworks, identity rebuilding exercises, and personalized structured pathways to move from burnout and confusion to clarity and momentum. It's not hype, it's neuroscience.

0:25:40 - (Toby Brooks): It's performance science. And it's hard won experience. If you're listening to Becoming Undone, I created a special offer just for you. For the next three months, you can get full access for just 49 bucks for an entire year or just 5 bucks a month with no obligation. You can cancel at any time. That's less than the price of a cup of coffee to start rebuilding your life on purpose. Your comeback isn't accidental, it's intentional.

0:26:05 - (Toby Brooks): Start yours today@scienceofthecumback.com and so I think

0:26:10 - (Shawn Eagle): that's, that's, that's why I do this.

0:26:14 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, it's powerful why and without a doubt it influences the work that you do and adds a personal corner to it that other people might not have. Speaking of your work today, since you finished your postdoc, you have become a prolific figure in this area of traumatic brain injury. And that's arguably a long way from an aspiring Masters of Athletic training student. That's not a typical path. Ours is not a master's thesis, master's program.

0:26:45 - (Toby Brooks): Was there a moment back then, maybe as an undergrad or master's student, where you realized that the path you were on was shifting from what you thought you were going to be and what you're doing now?

0:26:59 - (Shawn Eagle): Yeah, there was a big moment. Well, actually There were several. Dr. Hooper had a lot of research going on back then. And you know, I enjoyed particip. I noticed. I enjoyed participating in Those studies and like asking why they wanted to know this thing. And then there was a, I don't remember what course it was, but there was a literature review type assignment that I dove head on into and really enjoyed. And there were gas there that you probably still remember that were like, you know what, this is pretty good, like you should try to publish this. And it was like, I didn't know you could do that. You know, that's an option. And you know, they helped me kind of guide towards doing that. And we did it.

0:27:48 - (Shawn Eagle): You know, having that publication on a CV is what got me my first job in research only a few years later.

0:27:56 - (Toby Brooks): Wow.

0:27:57 - (Shawn Eagle): But I thought about your show and my pivot because the story of how I got here is very interesting because you're right, this is not, this doesn't happen very often from an M A T degree. I don't think any of my peers are in research and I still get to hear from many of them. But you know, I took the, I went the typical route. I ended up getting a athletic trainer position at my alma mater high school and went home to my parents house after graduating and started that job in, you know, the summer. And I was pretty miserable, uh, and I was acting like it, uh, and my football coach and my basketball coach were still there.

0:28:47 - (Shawn Eagle): Um, and they were big figures in my life. And you know, a couple, you know, five or so years after graduating, you know, as the captain of those teams, I'm back in those locker rooms as, you know, a master's level athletic trainer. And I think I, I think psychologically I was back to where I was when I was 16, 17, 18. I wasn't acting very professionally. I was reading books during practice instead of watching the practice and talking to people.

0:29:22 - (Shawn Eagle): You know, eventually the ad comes to me and is like, I don't think this is a good fit. So you know, you have two more weeks and in your house.

0:29:30 - (Toby Brooks): Wow.

0:29:30 - (Shawn Eagle): And I was really, really, really embarrassed because now I just got canned from my alma mater high school where, you know, my friends, little brothers and sisters are on the team, my coaches are still, are still there. I was very, very humbled by that. Some period of time later, not that long, cause I only had two weeks. I saw a posting for the University of Pittsburgh to work in human performance research, collecting data with special forces military personnel.

0:30:08 - (Shawn Eagle): I was like, that sounds amazing. Let's give this a try. And having that literature review on my CV and also having a recommendation from a Titan athletic trainer in this area, Tony Salisi. He was the head athletic Trainer, men's basketball Athletic trainer. During the glory years of Pitt men's basketball, he we, there was something about out of state students where we had to get a credit for, you know, like a one month internship to keep that, to keep the funds coming in. So when I went home for that six week period, I did four weeks with Tony and his staff here at Pitt at his recommendation.

0:30:55 - (Shawn Eagle): Sealed me getting that job and we another, another shot at something different. Right.

0:31:04 - (Toby Brooks): Well, we don't always often choose the path, but once we're on it, you know, we find that alignment and everything clicks and things that feel so forced and artificial and hard suddenly become aligned with our purpose. And that's kind of what the failure and the setback can do in a high achiever. So I applaud you for sticking through that tough season because clearly it's paid off. How would you say your experiences as an athlete and later as an athletic trainer shape who you have become personally and professionally today?

0:31:39 - (Shawn Eagle): I think this is a big part why I'm so passionate about the CTE side of things is I don't know what. I had great parents, but I don't know what I would be without football and sports in general. And it was so foundational to my life and the character and the person I want to be. And I don't want that to go away for so many young men who are searching for something as of science that we are not very confident about at the moment.

0:32:19 - (Shawn Eagle): And, you know, I was drawn to athletic trainers and, you know, my experiences with them were always very, you know, very good. I liked the idea of how many hats you have to wear when you're an athletic trainer. You're, you're, you know, you're the extension of the sports medicine physician a lot of times, but you also play the role of, like amateur bartender talking about general whatever with people who need to talk about things. And I remember some of those conversations and the secret sauce to being an athletic trainer that separates them from other health science professions is the work ethic and the love for sport.

0:33:08 - (Shawn Eagle): Any good athletic trainer is a grind. Mm. And I, I believe when I'm, when I'm the best version of myself, I'll grind as, as hard as anyone else. Yeah. And so I, I was attracted to that and athletic trainers, and that helps me kind of push when I'm tired and, you know, the kids aren't sleeping and whatever to get up and go do the thing that I need to do to push the agenda forward.

0:33:40 - (Toby Brooks): Absolutely. I often say that being an athletic Trainer trained me to think of pretty much any other job as part time work. And with that comes a sense of obligation. That's why so many ats, if they leave, they've got side hustles or other pursuits. Because 40 hours a week is usually done by the middle of the day on Wednesday for most athletic trainers. And then the other piece of that is, and I hate it personally in myself, I mean, you saw a glimpse of that when I got choked up just chatting with you. But we love people and yeah, we love sport. But I would argue that the best athletic trainers I know are such wholehearted leaders and they, you know, they're not just concerned about whether or not their patients, one rep max got better.

0:34:34 - (Toby Brooks): You know, they might not have the tools and the resources at their disposal. Like you said in 2006, we were struggling with a very blunt concussion instrument in the SAC or, you know, any of the early efforts to try to standardize how we assess concussions. As technology improves and as science moves forward with the work that you're doing, we're getting better at that. And if you can couple that love for people, slash patients with cutting edge medical care, now you've got the best possible scenario. And that's what I love in the young professionals that I see today, is they're so much better equipped with things that I didn't have, and that makes them better clinicians.

0:35:20 - (Shawn Eagle): Yeah, I, I think I, I agree with you. And I think, I think the best athletic trainers also have a little bit of a chip on their shoulder.

0:35:29 - (Toby Brooks): Hmm.

0:35:30 - (Shawn Eagle): It's no secret that athletic trainers are the bottom of the rung of healthcare professions, no matter who you talk to and about when. And that gives you a little bit of, of grit and resilience because you know how much impact you can have. And you know, I, I try to spread awareness, especially in our modern understanding of concussion. Athletic trainers are kind of perfectly trained to manage concussion in the modern understanding, you know, early activity, monitoring symptoms and changes from before injury. Nobody knows an athlete from before and after an injury better than the athletic trainer.

0:36:13 - (Toby Brooks): That's right.

0:36:14 - (Shawn Eagle): Even the coaches. And so I think there's a lot of upside for athletic trainers and concussion management moving forward.

0:36:21 - (Toby Brooks): Forward, Yeah, I agree. It's a very upstream healthcare model. Prevention, recognition. I mean, you know your patient's personality so well that if it changes, it's a red flag. Whereas if they got injured and went to an er, how on earth could anyone in that facility know that they don't have the blessing or the benefit of having that kind of connection to their patient. And so I recognize that it definitely puts us in a unique position to assess in a way that others don't have the ability to do.

0:36:55 - (Toby Brooks): You kind of alluded to CTE as perhaps the answer to this, but I want to pull at that thread a little bit more. What is something you wish people, the general population or athletes specifically, what is something you wish that they understood better about concussion as we understand it in 2026,

0:37:16 - (Shawn Eagle): that it's treatable? I. I still encounter people that, that are shocked by the. The notion that concussion can be managed by, you know, early activity. I'm talking one to two days after the injury. Even just as literal as aerobic exercise and for 30 minutes a day, and regulating your sleep can do a whole lot for getting better from. From a concussion as fast as possible. If you think about how far we've come since my concussion, it's really pretty astounding. Like, if someone had said someone had from the future had come back and said, you know, what Sean should do with this concussion is he should be active right away and not isolate and expose himself and recover at times, but really spend some time getting stimulated and recovering from those symptoms.

0:38:06 - (Shawn Eagle): People that would have scared the heck out of people. And, you know, it's really pretty remarkable how far we've come. And it's not. It's never too late. A lot of people also think that their current situation is set in stone and it's related to the head injury, and there's nothing they can do about that. And part of that is related to the narrative around CTE and the fact that there are no treatments and so forth. And so you need to understand that the brain is plastic and will respond and can respond. And we've seen it over and over and over again. And veterans exposed to blast to the old lady who fell off her ladder a year ago and couldn't still is having trouble.

0:38:55 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, Yeah, I think it's definitely amazing the pace with which we've seen the improvement. I used to say that other than congestive heart failure and concussion, everything else would benefit from exercise. And I've since had to correct that. You could even argue that congestive heart failure, appropriate exercise. I mean, it's what we used to say in modality. It's like, we're not causing healing, we're optimizing the healing environment. We're letting the body do what the body does to recover.

0:39:23 - (Toby Brooks): And we used to think, well, photophobia, put them in a dark room, minimize blood pressure. If it's a hemorrhage issue. We're concerned about a bleeder. Then we want them, you know, laying flat on a bed in a dark room for as long as it takes for their symptoms to resolve. But the body's resilient and it responds to the oxygen that comes from movement and from just the physiological processes that are oftentimes made better through activity.

0:39:52 - (Toby Brooks): But the question is, you know, how much and how long and how, how quickly do I follow that up with another bout? And that's where you're on the cutting edge of that type of work.

0:40:02 - (Shawn Eagle): Yeah, there's still a lot of work to be done. And for a lot of these things, we're not entirely certain biologically why it works. It just does. And it's rooted in strong science and psychological theory and physiology. But the exact reasons why they work, we need to do a better job of understanding. And from there we'll get even more targeted and, and more precise with how we manage the injury with. With every individual patient. Because it's different for everybody.

0:40:35 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, agreed. Again, we're talking with Dr. Shawn Eagle. He is a world renowned expert in all things traumatic brain injury. I almost said mild traumatic brain injury, but that's. The terminology changes and we have to keep up with the times. It doesn't matter if it's mild or not. It's. It's a brain injury. You know, no dingers, no bell rung, none of that. It's a brain injury. And that conveys the gravity of the situation.

0:41:01 - (Toby Brooks): The name of the show is becoming undone. And it's been said that nobody really cares about our story or our struggle until we actually succeed. Otherwise, you're just a failure. Nobody wants. That's not inspiring. Right. You have succeeded. And as you sit here right now, what are you growing into? Not just professionally, but as a person?

0:41:21 - (Shawn Eagle): Oh, I. Boy, I hope I'm. This is a demanding job and it's harder, it's hard when you're emotionally tied to it as well. It's a major benefit. But it's also, you know, you want things to go well and move forward and you want to contribute. And part of that is that team mentality from being an athlete and then being an athletic trainer. And that's really all I'm looking to do. And I'm trying to work really hard at work. Life balance and keeping work at work

0:42:00 - (Toby Brooks): and

0:42:02 - (Shawn Eagle): being a good husband and a good father and trying to make sure I'm present because it does go really fast. And I have two little boys and I want to make sure. They get everything out of me that they need.

0:42:22 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, it's beautiful. I, as we were talking before the show, I, I certainly relate to that. I spent the last weekend in Lubbock hanging out with my two who are 22 and 20, and, you know, gone are the days when I can strap them in the car seat and they got to go where dad and mom say. Now we're just hoping to get a spot on their calendar, bless their heart, but if they were sitting at home, I'd be sad about that too. It's the point of this is to launch them out into the world to make a difference and so enjoy it while you can.

0:42:57 - (Toby Brooks): I asked this one of all my guests, and it's kind of an oddball one, but I love the insight that it gives me into the personality. If we were to watch a montage of your life, what song would you pick to play in the background and why?

0:43:09 - (Shawn Eagle): Oh my. A montage of my life. I. I may need to think about that for a second as I love music. I, I love me. I love all kinds of music and it fluctuates so much. I'm. I'm leaning towards Take It Easy by the Eagles.

0:43:51 - (Toby Brooks): I'm trying to remember I used to do a mixtape, like walk up songs for your cohort. And I remember, I think you had a Black Sabbath song, if I, if I recall. Yeah, but, but definitely classic rock. I mean, so Eagles certainly fits that, that description. Why Take it Easy.

0:44:11 - (Shawn Eagle): That song is just. I love that song. As a reminder of, you know, we can get in these modes where we are really hard on ourselves and push and you know, I try to push myself every day, but I need a reminder every now and then to just take a beat and look around and embrace where you're at at the moment. And this is one of those moments for me having this conversation and being on there because you don't get to reflect that often about where you came from and who meant things to you and how you ended up to where you are. And you can trace it so clearly. The line from how I ended up from my high school position to where I am now.

0:45:02 - (Shawn Eagle): And you know, it. It's. It's fun to do that every now and again and appreciate what, what you had.

0:45:08 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, beautifully said and I couldn't agree more. Last one here. Where can people go to follow your work? I know your H index is blowing me out of the water by far, but where can I send them to, to. To check in on the work that you're doing? Maybe at your lab, your socials, that kind of thing.

0:45:28 - (Shawn Eagle): Yeah, let's see. We have Twitter accounts. I have a Twitter account, eaneagle. Definitely on LinkedIn.

0:45:39 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah, I'll look it up and drop that into the show notes for you.

0:45:44 - (Shawn Eagle): I work in the neurotrauma Clinical Trial center at the Department of Neurological Surgery at the University of Pittsburgh. But more so than focus on me, I want people to understand that

0:45:57 - (Toby Brooks): I'm

0:45:57 - (Shawn Eagle): very grateful to be from here. And this is really an epicenter of concussion and traumatic brain injury research in the world. And I'm so happy that I chose this route and people who were struggling come see us and we can help. There are clinicians here that are absolutely top notch, and people already do come from all around the world, but I want everyone to understand that this is a treatable thing. And there are others like us around the country that you can come visit as well.

0:46:33 - (Toby Brooks): Absolutely. I know a lot of people. You know, the Virginia Tech folks are known for their research on helmets bits. Known for its longstanding and impactful work, no pun intended there. But it's. It's cutting edge work that is changing. Not just sports. I mean, rules change has come about from this type of work. But the way athletes train, the way they recover, that's the beauty of research is when we're not just learning it for the sake of science, that's cool in and of itself, but when it impacts people's lives and it changes the way people respond and recover, that, to me, kind of scratches the itch I've always had to serve others.

0:47:15 - (Shawn Eagle): That's where I get my athletic trainer a little piece and I get a little. You know, it's nice to hear. I'm not a clinician anymore, but it's nice to work with clinicians and hear the stories of the people that this work and these new ideas are helping.

0:47:31 - (Toby Brooks): Yeah. Well, Sean, I can't thank you enough for joining me today. It's been a real treat. I look forward to continuing to follow your work as my listeners can.

0:47:42 - (Shawn Eagle): I'm Sean Eagle, and I am undone.

0:47:45 - (Toby Brooks): You know, as I sit with this conversation, there's a part of me that just keeps coming back to something Sean said. Not just about concussion being treatable. We knew that. But it's about how often we misunderstand what's actually happening in the middle of the struggle. Because for Sean, it wasn't just an injury. It was confusion, it was anxiety. It was a sense that something wasn't right, but not having the language to explain it.

0:48:14 - (Toby Brooks): And I think if we're honest, concussion or not, a lot of us have been there. Maybe it wasn't a concussion, but it was with something that changed us, something that left us feeling off, not quite ourselves, struggling in ways we couldn't fully explain, and wondering if anyone would listen even if we could, maybe even questioning our identity because of it. What I appreciate so much about Shawn's story is not just where he ended up, but how he got there.

0:48:44 - (Toby Brooks): Because the very thing that could have defined him in a negative way, the very thing that could have been the end of his story as an athlete, became the beginning of his purpose. And that's the invitation for all of us not to ignore those hard seasons, not to rush past the pain, but to recognize that sometimes the very thing that undoes us can also be the exact thing that helps begin to rebuild us.

0:49:10 - (Toby Brooks): If we're willing to stay in it, if we're willing to learn from it, if we're willing to let it shape us. And maybe today that's the reminder you needed. I know it's the reminder I needed. That what feels confusing, that what feels frustrating, that what feels like you're not quite yourself right now might not be the end of your story. It might just be the beginning of something that you just can't quite see yet.

0:49:38 - (Toby Brooks): I'm thankful to Sean for dropping in and hope you enjoyed our conversation. For more info on today's episode, be sure to check it out on the web. Simply go to unknown podcast.com ep156 to see the notes, links and images related to today's guest, Dr. Shawn Eagle. Some quick updates about the show. We are still hanging around at number eight or number nine in Apple's self improvement and education categories.

0:50:14 - (Toby Brooks): And sadly, we remain out of Apple's top 200 across all categories again this week. If you would have told me three years ago that I'd log in and see those facts and be disappointed at being ranked number eight in the world doing this show, I would have laughed out loud at you. That's like a dream come true. But yet here we are in March. I got spoiled. We peaked at number four in category and number 82 across all categories. So somehow I have managed to find a way to be disappointed.

0:50:44 - (Toby Brooks): And in that current circumstance, it's a pathology. I get it. I have a disease, as dads around the world are known to say. I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. But I'd say more than that. I'm determined. We're going to get back there and you can help if you want to follow along and see the progress for yourself, you can go to undonepodcast.com rankings cheer me on in the last month we had over 31,000 downloads, but we aren't done yet. If you'd be so kind as to share the show with a friend or leave a comment or a review, that would be most appreciated. And it would help Time for the Teal of the Week Sounded to me like the beasties just said rhyming and tealing.

0:51:27 - (Toby Brooks): Maybe that's just me. If you listened in to my multi part Larry Johnson series last year, you heard me ramble on and on about my deep love for teal. To me, it's not just a 90s staple, it's become a trademark. The guys around the residence hall kind of make fun of me because I'm always wearing something teal and there's a story behind that. Now I consider myself a performance scientist and I like to let the data do my deciding.

0:51:56 - (Toby Brooks): Data informed, data driven, whatever. Over the years, and I think the data backs me up on this, I've learned that the environments that we create, right down to how we decorate our space and what we choose to wear, all that stuff, can influence how we show up. For me, teal has become that cue. It's become a subconscious signal that represents clarity and energy and focus. It's a small but consistent way to signal to myself.

0:52:23 - (Toby Brooks): Brooks it's time to be present. It's time to be intentional. It's time to do this well. So each week I told you I'd be wearing a different teal shirt, usually tied to a team or a program, just as a way to keep that rhythm and consistency. But sadly, this week's Teal of the Week is no teal at all. If you checked out the clips on socials or the interview on YouTube, when I'm talking to Sean, I'm just wearing a plain white and gray polo shirt. No teal to be seen.

0:52:54 - (Toby Brooks): And honestly, like I said that that kind of tracked. I already told you about how it's been kind of a gloomy and a heavy season for me this past month, so Tbachai probably needed some teal. But I will say as I'm editing this and finalizing this episode right now, I do have a teal silicone bracelet on it that I just ordered. Just got it. It says Genesis 49:24. So you might ask, why a teal bracelet? And why or what does that verse have to say?

0:53:24 - (Toby Brooks): So I already told you, teal is my power color. So there was that but I also needed a reminder in this season. Genesis 49:24 says, but his bow remained steady, his strong arm stayed limber because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob. The verse is part of Jacob's blessing over his son Joseph, highlighting that despite severe challenges and temptations, Joseph remained strong. So to me, it's a reminder to stay steady, remain ready, and above all else, trust not in myself, but in the Lord.

0:53:58 - (Toby Brooks): I hope you can take some encouragement from that, the same way I did. And you don't need a teal, but I'd love it if you came up with another power move of your own. Whether that's your own color, a room, decor, a playlist, whatever you can come up with that can help inspire inspire you to be just a bit better. And if you do, I'd love you to tell me about it. Shoot me an email@tobyndunpodcast.com and tell me what you're doing to optimize your performance.

0:54:26 - (Toby Brooks): Coming up on the show, I've got former All American gymnast entrepreneur, podcaster and Sport management professor Dr. Courtney Beck. I've also got a new solo shot brewing about the fourth quarter that I think you're going to enjoy. This and more coming up on Becoming Undone. Becoming Undone is a nitrohype creative production written and produced by me, Toby Brooks. Tell a friend about the show and follow along on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn at becomingundonepod.

0:54:54 - (Toby Brooks): And follow me Obi BrooksPhD on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and every once in a while on X. I don't post on there very much, but either way check out my linktree at linktr.ee tobybrooksphd Listen, subscribe and leave me a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts. Till next time friend. Keep getting better. Sa.